Yeah But Like, Don't You Have To Be Chosen By The Planet And Be 'worthy' To Use Excalibur Or Something

Is it just me or does Fate's Mordred never receive any hate for starting her rebellion, which brought an end to Camelot? I know Artoria doesn't like her, but she's the only one. Gawain, who was literally killed by Mordred, is shown to love Mordred like a beloved sibling. I feel like Fate really ignores how guilty Mordred is for the loss of Camelot, and seems to blame Lancelot more due to his affair with Guinevere. What do you think?

I mean, yes. Fate never really makes an attempt to punish Mordred.

From a fan-perspective, there's not much room for hate because he's a solid character in regards to his villainy. He was one of the stronger parts of Apocrypha, and just like Nero served as a strong parallel to Artoria.

But from an in-fiction perspective, it's also that Mordred doesn't really... care. He doesn't care at all, really.

I think a common thing is that people assume that Mordred is a good person. He isn't. He isn't EVIL, but he isn't good either. He does what he wants, and follows just enough of a chivalric code that means that in most cases, he generally ends up doing the 'right' thing. He's a person driven by impulse, unlike the other KoTR that have a stricter moral code. He's one of the few characters that genuinely fits 'Chaotic Neutral'.

Mordred cares about one thing. Artoria. That's it. Not Camelot, not the citizens, not the other knights, just Artoria.

Camelot was a means to an end to take down Artoria- he talks big game about wanting to be king, but also doesn't have much remorse. 'Being king' as a wish was even just a way to lessen Artoria's burden, not to better the kingdom in any discernible way.

So, it's hard to put guilt on a character that is, by design... not that guilty about what they did. Mordred knows he's a traitor. He doesn't care.

Lancelot and Gawain, however, are drowning in guilt. Gawain's just keeping his head above water to stay a Saber, while Lancelot would rather just drown in madness because even lucidity is painful for him. That's because, unlike Mordred, Lancelot and Gawain are fundamentally good people who made horrible mistakes.

The narrative can't draw pain from the fall of Camelot for Mordred, because he doesn't give a shit.

However, a big part about how the knights current treat each other is the narrative of forgiveness. Artoria had the entirety of Stay Night and Zero. Gawain had EXTRA and the Camelot Singularity to genuinely forgive himself and Lancelot. Lancelot had Zero and Camelot Singularity. Tristan, Bedivere, and Agravain had the Camelot Singularity. Gareth will have a new interlude where she addresses her pain with Lancelot. The narrative of taking the second life that they're given as Servants, and appreciating it and their fellow knights.

And while Mordred is brought into the narrative due to being a knight, he isn't as central to it. Which puts him in his own bit of punished limbo- because while the other knights have openly forgiven each other, and him- Artoria hasn't.

And Artoria's the only one who really matters to Mordred.

You know whole Morgan having three different personalities probably worked a bit bitter if it was more like Morgan the witch, Vivian, and Morgan the sister to Artoria were originally one person but something happened to her to split into three people that now lead different lives that played a hand in fate’s arthurian mythos

Sorry, but I seriously don’t agree. If you're just going to split them into three different people, keep them as three separate people in the first place. The issue of 'Morgan being Vivian' wasn't 'Morgan and Vivian can't exist in separate places and live different lives', it's that:

'Morgan being Vivian, combined with the condensed timespan of Fate's Arthurian mythos, opens up more questions than answers due to the established ages of the characters'

I was fine with Morgan having Vivian's authority, because characters borrow the 'authority' of some other character every other moment. But having Morgan actually be Vivian, therefore being Lancelot's adoptive mother, and ALSO being arbitrarily written to be Artoria's FULL sister rather than a partial sibling from an earlier relationship- it just makes things messy for no good reason.

And Morgan COULD have been 'The Lady of the Lake'. That's not a new concept- but it was a concept that worked when Morgan was... you know, allowed to be considerably older than Arthur in order for that to feasibly work. Especially considering all the pre-Arthur stuff that generally happened regarding Merlin, Vortigern, Uther, etc.

The Arthurian mythos, despite the name, didn't just... start with King Arthur. It's a story that requires setup, and Nasu wrote it so that the 'setup' is just a murky pit that requires logical jumps and purely ignoring other things in order to make it work. 

Nasu wants to have his cake and eat it to with every Arthurian character being both 'cool and young' and also having lived the full lives that encapsulated their stories, and it just makes things into a muddy mess once you look past the glamour of 'this sounds cool'. He wants to have the moral ambiguity of Morgan le Fay, but he didn’t give himself a proper setting to do so.

Gonna ramble for a bit.

Galahad’s portrayal in FGO kinda sucks for like, several reasons, but the main thing is how they underuse his connection with Mash. Like, it was one thing when the theory was ‘Galahad refuses to actively participate in anything relating to Chaldea’, but that got muddled in event after event where he imposes his will onto Mash exclusively to dunk on his father, and that’s it.

Like… Galahad’s whole thing was that he was this incredibly pure, uber-devout knight that constantly spent his time healing people and banishing evil spirits, and they do… ABSOLUTELY NOTHING with that. Mash is defensive sure, and her skills may express that, but like… we fight so many ghosts and evil spirits, and yet there’s no mention of that aspect of Galahad at all.

Galahad’s personality only manifests around Lancelot? And purely to make Mash say rude things to him? For no reason? Which seems notably out of character for both of them, especially since a pretty large teaching in Christianity is ‘turning the other cheek’, which Mash!Galahad doesn’t do in the slightest- which is even weirder because Lancelot isn’t even at FAULT in the relationship, Galahad’s mother is.

Galahad’s relationship with Lancelot wasn’t even that canonically bad. Most of the ‘conflict’ between Lancelot and Galahad came from Galahad TANGENTALLY proving he was better than Lancelot by doing more good deeds and acting more knightly. When Galahad actually fought and beat Lancelot, Lancelot was so impressed that he was the one who ended up knighting him in the first place.

But like… why not have parts of Galahad’s personality manifest in other ways? Why not have Mash find herself drawn towards incredibly religious Christian Servants like Martha and Jeanne? Or have interesting conversations with David or Amakusa? Why not have her feel pity towards Caster Gilles, and maybe a obligation to bring him back to the ‘right path’?

Why not have Mash feel uncomfortable around the Roman Servants (especially Nero), considering Rome was

One of Camelot/Britain’s biggest enemies

Persecuted a ton of Christians, and…

Like, FAMOUSLY KILLED JESUS.

Actually, why don’t any of the Christian Servants express even the slightest bit of ‘eeeehhh…’ around Nero and the other Romans? Outside of the fact that it’s impossible for them to paint Nero and Rome in a slightly negative light. Wait, no. That’s it. That’s the reason.

And these are just a few possibilities, but there are SO many Servants in Chaldea that Mash could interact in a more meaningful way with due to sharing a body with Galahad.

Galahad just feels so stupidly underused during Part 1 and events, and maybe they’re saving some of the more intricate stuff for if he actually shows up as a Servant, but at the same time it feels like they’ll be doing the bare minimum with him.

What do you think about PHH Morgan?

Now, remember, I don't even like or really even pity LostBelt Morgan.

PHH just annoys me. Her motive has been completely cheapened from being a direct result of Uther's actions to 'it was her purpose as a fae to be king'. Because I guess we can't have Uther doing anything bad that might reflect poorly on Artoria.

We also now have her having split personalities because Nasu either was feeling lazy or REALLY wanted to hint at that triad goddess that everyone keeps pretending existed and never did outside the Fates.

And also making everything with Lancelot really REALLY weird. Since he was raised by the Lady of the Lake. Who is now Morgan. Who stole him as a child from his parents while they were fleeing their kingdom. Who also apparently raised him to fight for Artoria. Who he is implied to have feelings for and showed up earlier than usual.

Nasu's Camelot lore is a mess.

Then we have Mordred, and how Mordred was conceived and created. And the fact that we know that she was abusive to Mordred. To the point that Mordred goes nuts on Semiramis just because she reminds Mordred of Morgan. And yeah, I'm putting the blame of Artoria's rejection completely on Morgan. While Artoria gets a hard time for how she responded to Mordred, at some level, I'm not particularly shocked that she sort of shut down. That's about the only way she knows how to deal with trauma, and Nasu decided to have Morgan do what Uther originally did (taking the form of a loved one to sleep with you) and Artoria is understandably not responding well.

But yeah, my issues with Morgan are also a part of a wider issue with how Nasu is doing Camelot. I'm fully aware of WHY I think he's doing it this way, but it still annoys me.

Both thoughts on Morgan please ! :D

Morgan in folklore is a fascinating character. Mostly because no matter what, her first presence as "Morgan the Healer" never seems to go away. She always is, in the end, the one who takes Arthur to Avalon, the reason that maybe he'll be able to come back, while also being one of the key factors that leads to the end of Camelot. no matter how much people try, she's outside of being defined completely. What's more, she's got an incredibly personal and touching motive when you look at it. This isn't just some story about power and how far someone is willing to go to take it, it's about love, and how a horrific act in the past can have echoes that affect the innocent. This isn't to say I like her as a 'hero' but I like her as character.

So, to me Fate!Morgan feels a little like wasted potential. Her motives are a little clearer with new stuff, but honestly pretty much everything I said earlier still stands about why I hate her as Uther's 'true and recognized daughter' even if apparently she's now some fae that spawned into existence too. Her motive of 'you took away my destiny', sort of erases her nuance as a character, and it more just seems like she's a bad person from the start who doesn't accept that she's a bad person. What's more, Nasu tends to use her to project things like the Lady of the Lake's bad behavior on. And, more importantly, it erases Uther's being a creep. Like, I like that we've got a face and more to her, but I guess I feel that if we're going to overcomplicate the reason Artoria became king as having to do with Vortigern and the White Dragon and a plot between Uther and Merlin to save the country, we can have Morgan have a little more complicated motives. In the LB, I'm...pretty sure we're going to get some Midsummer Night's Dream payoff with her though.

Morgan le Fey’s Condensed Timeline

I drove myself up the wall working this out this morning, but this is how I assume Morgan could have possibly raised 6 children while Altria only lived to age 35. Please let me know if you see anything wrong, I’m doing my best!

@drunk-on-starlight​

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Do ya ever think that if Uther shows up, and he, the Artorias, and Morgan interact, Chaldea is just gonna have a collective epiphany of "So parental issues have always been a thing in this family, hasn't it?"

I’ll be honest I try very hard not to think about Uther because idk if it’s explained in fsn or whatever but my knowledge of Artoria’s backstory prior to being king is cruelly lacking

Like, is she Uther’s daughter? Is she a farmer’s daughter? Why does she sound like she was raised among commoners, why was Merlin the one to raise her? Why did Merlin present her to the Sword of Selection considering he doesn’t actually see the future? Or is it that he’s not able to anymore? Why is the Caliburn used to designate the next king, didn’t Uther have any other recognized heirs? What’s the fucking deal with Morgan? Did she grow up with Artoria? Do these two even like. Interacted? Why would Morgan want the fall of King Arthur? Is it a personal grudge? Is it a general “fuck you Britain”? Why did Merlin give Artoria a dragon heart?

Like none of them really matter when it comes to Artoria as a character, since from my understanding she’s supposed to represent “shoving who you are as a person under a rug in favor of a vague ideal you don’t really understand” (like Shirou and Rin) so the exact reason why “Artoria the farmer girl” exists and became “Artoria the King” doesn’t really matter, so I’m fine with that usually, but that means thinking about Artoria’s extended family feels a bit like that one time I tried to write a fic about a show but the canon was so inconsistent I had to rewrite the entire worldbuilding when the point was originally just to make a cute soulmate au for my otp.

If I were to nitpick at every weird thing Fate does with Arthurian legend, I’d be writing all night, but there is something the Fate series changes that really bugs me, and it has to do with Morgan le Fay.

Fate!Morgan is actually a composite character, derived from two characters from Arthurian legend; Legend!Morgan le Fay, from whom she gains her magical abilities, and Morgause, from whom she largely takes her role in story, as mother of the Orkney siblings (Gawain, Agravain, Gaheris, Gareth, and Mordred) and part of the reason for the fall of Camelot. Fate!Morgan being made up of those two characters doesn’t bug me. I think it’s actually not a bad idea to combine those two characters to make things a bit simpler than having them both around.

That’s not what bugs me.

What does bug me is the way they changed her relationship to Arthur/Artoria.

In Fate, Morgan is a legitimate daughter of Uther Pendragon. My search on the type-moon wiki doesn’t specify who her mother was, but it’s probably safe to assume her mother was Igraine, making her Artoria’s full sister. The reason for her antagonism towards Artoria is that she saw their father as loving her more, and placing his hopes in his younger daughter, even though both Morgan and Artoria were of equal status. This favoritism, whether true of perceived, led Morgan to resent Artoria and want to destroy her.

Now, in most versions of Arthurian legend, Morgan and Morgause are NOT the daughters of Uther. Instead, they are the daughters of Igraine and Gorlois, the Duke of Cornwall (the very south-western most part of Britain). Uther fell in love with Igraine, and went to war with Gorlois to steal her from him. On the very same night that Uther’s forces storm the castle Gorlois is staying in and kill him, Uther has Merlin use magic to disguise him as Gorlois, so he can sneak into the castle Igraine is in and rape her, conceiving Arthur. Igraine later learns the truth about what happened, and is coerced into marrying Uther. Her daughters, Elaine, Morgause, and Morgan, are then married to Uther’s allies.

From my point of view, Morgan and Morgause have a much more compelling reason to hate Arthur in the legend than Morgan does in Fate. The sisters see Arthur as the son of the person who murdered their father, raped their mother, and married them off to secure his own political alliances. Arthur presents himself as the rightful king of Britain and a just ruler, but this is predicated on being the legitimate heir of Uther Pendragon. For Morgan and Morgause, this means that Arthur, Camelot, and every ideal of honor and chivalry they stand for are built upon such an act of cruelty and barbarism that it renders everything a colossal monument to hypocrisy. How could they not want to see it all collapse in on itself?

All in all, I just think trading all of that in for “Dad loved you more than me so I hate you” is just wasted potential.

Love this game