Can People Stop Pushing The Idea That You Shouldn’t Share Information About RAMCOA At All? Yeah, Sharing

In one of his books, Kantor offers insight at other facets of AvPD that exist beyond the DSM criteria, that are often overlooked (and aren’t easily explained by other disorders).

On “classic” avoidants (Type I):

“(…) profile of pervasive shyness and fearful isolation. Within this class, variations of severity exist on a continuum. Some of these individuals live by themselves or with their family, either staying at home and not socializing at all, or socializing only with a few selected individuals, attempting to meet people but having difficulty connecting as they try, but fail, to form sustained and sustaining relationships. Others form relationships that are only partially avoidant: limited in degree or of reduced intensity such as bicoastal marriages; serial monogamous relationships; or relationships that are stably unstable, dysfunctional because being with unattainable partners makes the relationships unlikely to come to fruition, or if they do, sooner or later, they are destined to dissolve.”

A fear of flooding and losing control of various impulses due to overstimulation (…) disturbing inner peace (…)

A fear of failure, accompanied by a paradoxical (masochistic) fear of success (…)

Self-criticism due to self-condemnation by a harsh, unforgiving, shaming conscience, causing one to become guilty over legitimate desires and ordinary (but to the avoidant extraordinarily shameful), interpersonal foibles (…)

Relational idealism consisting of a disdain for relationships that appear to be imperfect, originating in excessive expectations of oneself and others (…)

Covalent characterological features, including histrionic (oedipal) rivalry that buries the potential for closeness, intimacy, and commitment under competitive struggles with others—as Gabbard notes, “entailing an aggressive demand for complete attention… associated with a wish to scare away or kill off all rivals… [with the competitiveness] interwoven with a sense of shame” obsessive fretting about the correctness and propriety of one’s interpersonal actions (…) paranoid suspiciousness about the negative things others are, or might be, thinking; depressive alarmism and pessimism that nothing will ever work out as hoped and planned for and the worrisome fear that if all is not already lost, it soon will be; excessive “don’t make waves” passivity, accompanied by a paradoxical fear of passivity and so a need to be on constant alert and continuously active to assure always being in complete control of everything about one’s relationships; extreme dependence possibly leading to a codependent relationship with one person to avoid having to relate to any and all others (…)

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Excessive Defensiveness

Avoidance is not a static, but an active, dynamic condition—what Millon and Davis call an “active detachment,” that is, one with important defensive components. Sullivan describes avoidance as a “somnolent detachment,” the protective dynamism “called out by inescapable and prolonged anxiety.” (…) What is avoided is an allusion either to a temptation for the warded-off drive or to a feared punishment or both.” Therefore some observers, emphasizing how the avoidant inhibits important aspects of living to reduce (social) anxiety, suggest that the term inhibited personality could substitute for the term avoidant personality disorder. Avoidant detachment is made up of the following defenses, among others:

Identification with the aggressor. Avoidants create expected losses actively to handle the possibility of experiencing unexpected losses passively, for example, “I fear your rejecting me” becomes “I reject you to avoid being rejected by you.”

Masochism. Self-sacrificing, self-abnegating, and self-punitive responses are an avoidant’s way to counter forbidden desire. Avoidants commit a kind of social suicide to punish themselves for what they consider to be their unacceptable instinctual urges. They suffer now to avoid suffering even more later.

Repression. Repression is the avoidant’s way to detoxify anxious thoughts and feelings by suppressing them, then acting as if they no longer exist (…)

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Associated Characterological Problems

Obsessionalism. Avoidants are worrisome individuals (…) often rigid, inflexible people who, stuck in routine, have difficulty adapting to unexpected life changes. Also, ambivalent about relationships, instead of settling in to a given relationship, they do and undo it: attempting to relate, becoming anxious, pulling back, then trying again either with the same person or with someone different, ad infinitum (…)

Paranoia. Avoidants are hypervigilant individuals who fear something bad can or will happen to them (…) They take impersonal matters far too personally and see rejections that are not there as a clear and present danger, or actual attack. A difficulty with basic trust leads them to become highly skeptical of everyone, convinced that no one will show them any goodwill whatsoever, and certain that either they will trust everyone and get burned, or trust no one and get dumped (…)

Depression. Avoidants tend to be depressed individuals with intense negative moods (…) They hold the pessimistic view that when it comes to relationships, there is no sense even trying since there is little chance of ever succeeding. Depressive cognitions prevail (…) so that they readily come to believe that any sign of disinterest in them constitutes a turndown, a turndown a rejection, and a rejection an epochal tragedy (…)

And “counterphobic” avoidants (Type II), who are avoidants who unlike the “typical” ones, manage to form connections, albeit in turbulent ways.

Type IIa avoidants can generally maintain superficial, short-lived, relationships with people and the subtype, “mingles”, jump from relationship to relationship unable to settle and not minding quality.

Type IIb avoidants, “seven-year itch”, can form proper bonds with others but for a limited time, because they burn out or become disinterested as time passes.

Type IIc avoidants, have severe codependency tendencies.

Things that don’t make you a bad person:

Displaying “scary” symptoms of mental illness

Being diagnosed with multiple disorders

Having one or various personality disorders

Being diagnosed with NPD, BPD, or ASPD

Having very low empathy, or no empathy

Having symptoms that cause anger, emptiness, or paranoia

Having triggers or “strange” personal boundaries

Needing extra help or accommodations

Having intrusive thoughts about upsetting or scary topics

One of my favourite bits of media history trivia is that back in the Elizabethan period, people used to publish unauthorised copies of plays by sending someone who was good with shorthand to discretely write down all of the play's dialogue while they watched it, then reconstructing the play by combining those notes with audience interviews to recover the stage directions; in some cases, these unauthorised copies are the only record of a given play that survives to the present day. It's one of my favourites for two reasons:

It demonstrates that piracy has always lay at the heart of media preservation; and

Imagine being the 1603 equivalent of the guy with the cell phone camera in the movie theatre, furtively scribbling down notes in a little book and hoping Shakespeare himself doesn't catch you.

the brain is literally so fucking cool

here's some fun facts bc i love reading about neuroscience

- the brain LITERALLY cannot tell the difference between what is real and imagined. this is why self deprecating jokes are so harmful and positive affirmations actually work

- contrary to popular belief, your brain doesn't actually stop growing at 21. this used to be believed but has since been proven false. you can change the LITERAL NEURAL NETWORKS OF YOUR BRAIN at any age. (tho it is true that the younger you are the higher the neuroplasticity of the brain)

- hypnosis isn't mind control. IT'S YOUR BRAIN USING HYPNOSIS AS AN EXUSE TO LET GOT OF IT'S SUBCONCIOUS BELIEFS. your brain basically uses the hypnotist as a means to ignore your beliefs. for example, if you have a fear of snakes. it's very hard for your brain to get over that fear by itself, but when being hypnotized the brain basically lies to itself and uses the hypnotist as an excuse to get over the fear.

- pure thought. PURE THOUGHT by itself, can change the fucking hardwiring of your brain. if you run every day, your brain learns to accommodate this habit and make it easier for you to run. now if you sit and JUST visualized yourself running for a couple minutes every day, your brain will do the exact same fucking thing. the brain is like "oh they seem to be running a lot. lets makes that easier for them" and will change the hardwiring of the neural networks to accommodate.

- everything you see and experience is just an interpretation of reality. technically you aren't actually seeing reality. when you think about it, we're just thought. so what the brain (aka the organizer) does, is take all the information that all the different senses provided, with all the brains previous knowledge, and creates what we experience. think of it like your personal sketch artist. (this is why illusions are weird)

✦ Rainy day apartment details ✦

I would not suggest the deprogrammed wiki, lots of miss information there, but there is some true stuff there too. Just wanted to add that! 

RAMCOA* Resources

Trigger warning: the content on these websites contain discussions of rape, abuse, and trauma-based mind control. PLEASE be careful with yourself, especially if you’re a survivor.

Survive’s page on ritual abuse

General information, does not include information about mind control. Aimed at survivors and allies.

BRISSC’s page on ritual abuse

General information, does not include information about mind control. Aimed at survivors and allies.

RAMCOA Resources Carrd

A very thorough resource on RA and mind control. Contains information on different types of programmed alters and their terms, a general definition of ritual abuse and TBMC, common trigger dates for survivors, and what you can do to help. Aimed at allies. The information here can possibly be triggering if you are a survivor or suspect you are a survivor.

endritualabuse.org

A vast site on ritual abuse and mind control, created by a psychologist who has worked with survivors of RA. Contains information, words from survivors to survivors, and symptom lists of survivors, mostly intended for therapists and professionals. As a survivor, I have found many helpful things for recovery on this site, but please be careful on which articles you read. The information part of this site is very thorough and can possibly be triggering if you are a survivor or suspect you are a survivor.

Deprogram Wiki

This is a site that is a gold mine for information on detecting if someone is a victim of TBMC and programming, the different types of programmed alters, and, specifically for therapists or professionals, how to deprogram someone who has been a victim of RAMCOA. HEAVY TRIGGER WARNING — this site is NOT intended for survivors at all and can be extremely triggering.

*RAMCOA - an acronym that stands for Ritual Abuse, Mind Control, and Organized Abuse.

what does nccsa mean?

con contact child sexual abuse, its sexual abuse that didnt involve any touching, examples below

if it’s ok to ask what exactly counts as experiencing tbmc? does it include manipulation and gaslighting.. childhood torture? what exactly is mind control how does someone know if they have been through that? is childhood torture in general considered ramcoa as well or must it meet specified requirements?

Okay so we ended up getting hit by a shit ton of stuff in our life so we've been a bit less active here- sorry it took a while to answer.

First we have another post we have made discussing some of the stuff surrounding TBMC. You can find that post here.

Second, this is a religious sight that is trying to make Christianity more healthy and safe and trauma informed, not fully our cup of tea but it has an interesting page on TBMC here. (Mention it's religious and which religion because it can be triggering)

Now onto us actually answering things ourself.

what exactly counts as experiencing tbmc? does it include manipulation and gaslighting.. childhood torture?

TBMC as we have previously mentioned is known as Trauma Based or Torture Based Mind Control. Childhood torture very often is done for the purpose of mind control, in which case it would fall under TBMC. Most childhood torture is RAMCOA but not all of it falls under TBMC as TBMC is more known as the result rather than the traumatic incidents that it takes to occur the way RAMCOA generally defines the experiences.

TBMC is also not something only children can experience. The experiences of children born into it or raised with it at a young age will be different than an adult introduced to it later in life, but it is still TBMC all the same. There is no cut off age for when torture magically can stop affecting the wiring of your brain. Humans are malleable, and bad people will always know that. Governments will know that too. TBMC is rampant among governmental agencies.

All TBMC is manipulation- but not all manipulation is TBMC. TBMC is done with the goal of rewiring your brain and making you behave in very specific ways. It's meant to make you do things you would not otherwise or believe in things you would not otherwise. It is intrinsically linked to programming. Programming can be done to individual alters (induced by programmers targeting a specific self-state or state of mind or associating certain traumas with specific orders/tasks/etc to make an alter be attached to a specific behavior or task or idea), and system-wide or on the whole of the person (think strong unwavering loyalty common in many cults that refuse all evidence of being in a cult).

Gaslighting might get used within TBMC but it is not inherited to TBMC and by itself would not produce the same effects as TBMC.

what exactly is mind control how does someone know if they have been through that?

Oh man this is where it gets very tricky. There is no exact answer to what mind control is as it happens in a variety of different ways. Mind control is basically manipulation of someone's thoughts and behavior that then become intrinsic to the person and last far after they were programmed. It's more than just being made to believe strange things- it's internalizing them to such a degree that they impact your day to day life and view of the world as a whole.

Us being a decade away from the cult and having no reason to go back but having an urge even stronger than our OCD compulsions at times to go back is one type of programming we experience. We also have what presents as agoraphobia- but do not have fear of open spaces and can get groceries fine and go to work and school without issue. This is actually our self-isolation program that tells us when there is no obligation we should never interact with anyone else- there is no reason to. Unless the reason is to proselytize- and since we do not have the faith we once did, that is no longer an option. It's a deeply internalized behavior and belief that sticks even when we logically know it's bad. We are aware it is stupid and unreasonable but we physically cannot break out of it (where we are in recovery currently that is).

It's hard to tell for sure if you have it or not. One thing we had that should have been incredibly fucking obvious to us but wasn't- was that we excused the abuse one of the people in our life put us through as "he was just trying to train us". Never occurred to us that the fact he was "training" us made it worse. It was basically self-defense but not for actual defense type stuff if you catch my drift.

There can also be signs within your behavior. Sometimes it's hard to differentiate OCD and programs as well because some programs can be pushed back on the same way you can with OCD compulsions. However in our case most of our programs are just innate and incredibly difficult to stop ourselves from doing if we can at all. Realizing you have behavior that you struggle to physically stop and have no wish to engage in and do while consciously being aware you do not want to do them and this happens often- was one of the big signs to us. (And again it's a very complex issue because of different mental health concerns that could be tricky.)

is childhood torture in general considered ramcoa as well or must it meet specified requirements?

We personally consider it to fall under that because more extreme forms of abuse tend to end up with the same issues but there is debate. The most common things people know of that fall under RAMCOA is trafficking and cults.

However if you are trying to determine if something you have already known to experience counts as this term there's a few things you can do.

Does it fall under RA/Ritual abuse? It can hard to tell but I suggest just looking up basic information on what RA is conceptually (if you are in a good mental state and/or have a professional to fall back on and if possible a safety net of friends or family). RA is a very vast concept.

Did you experience TBMC or another form of mind control? If yes then automatically the label applies to you. This also goes for hypnotic mind control and substances used for mind control- as they are also important but less talked about forms of this.

Did you experienced organized abuse? This is a group partaking in abuse towards you. Whether it be mandated or the norm by something like a cult, or a criminal ring, etc. It's a bit hard to get into right now for me.

The only requirements are that you experience RA, MC, or OA. You can experience multiple- RA AND MC for example. Or just one. OA or RA. We struggle mostly with MC as we grew up in a cult that kinda worshipped the leader almost (but nobody would ever admit it even though they quote shit he says online like bible quotes). Which is why we talk about it so much, but it's not necessary to be a RAMCOA survivor.

It's okay to take time to figure out the extent of trauma you might have gone through. It's okay if you fit or don't fit any particular label. All trauma is incredibly important. There just tends to be a lot of subgroups of people with specific experiences because of how it impacts their daily life.

Do you know any credible sources on “programming” specifically? I am unclear on the actual definition, I think I went through some things that could be described that way but I don’t understand the difference between “programming” and “grooming” trafficking victims. I previously have only really heard explanations on what programming supposedly is from untrustworthy, conspiracy-ish sources talking about like government mind-control in pop music, but I don’t want to disregard the whole concept if there is better information or research on it.

The term "programming", as I understand it, has fallen out of academic favor due to the connections you mention. Because of this, its definition is somewhat fluid, but I'd generally define programming as:

"The process of using trauma-induced dissociation to implant specific sets of instructions, messages, learned associations, and triggers to produce desired behavior in a victim. It is, at its essence, an extreme form of conditioning, and relies on the use of dissociated parts (alters) to effectively control the victim's mind."

Another source, ra-info.org (one of the oldest sites about RAMCOA on the internet) puts it this way:

"Programming refers both to the process of teaching part of the mind unquestioned obedience and to the content of what is taught. Thus you can say that a person has been programmed to suicide under certain conditions, or you can talk about a suicide program that is triggered (activated) by certain words or conditions."

Grooming for trafficking purposes may or may not use programming methods, as programming requires a level environmental control that not all situations can muster. Programming also typically involves... Well, weirder, more intense stuff. For example, most trafficking operations are not going to use spin programming, but rely more on basic cause & effect. Additionally, grooming may have more of a focus on positive reinforcement, while programming typically doesn't.

And programming is just one end of a large spectrum that encompasses many forms of conditioning, grooming, and abuse; some cases may have some elements of programming (like manipulating dissociative responses to create alters) while not having the structure necessary to do a good job of it. (That's what our case looked like!) Trafficking organizations may not have the money, access, space, or time to implement full programs.

But sources that mention programming by name do exist, and most give their own definition of programming. I'll throw them under a cut because this post is already getting long.

Dialogues With Forgotten Voices by Harvey Schwartz (2000). Generally a great resource so far, I haven't read all of it but what I have gone through is enlightening. Programming is mentioned all through the book but 330 is where more specifics are discussed. Index starts at page 499 so you can peruse topics by your own discretion. His other book, The Alchemy of Wolves & Sheep, covers similar ground (RAMCOA) but with a unique focus (forced perpetration). It's in my pinned post.

Both of Alison Miller's Books, Healing the Unimaginable (2011) and Becoming Yourself (2014). Many survivors swear by these books, and they use the term "programming" throughout. I haven't read these yet but you'll see them referenced constantly.

Safe Passage to Healing by Chrystine Oksana (1994). Another "classic", another book I haven't touched yet. Discusses programming quite a bit and is meant for survivors.

Many of Steven Hassan's works use programming in a slightly more "casual" manner from what I can see—referring to brainwashing at any age in the contexts of cults, as that's Hassan's focus—but helpful for many regardless.

Spin Programming: A Newly Uncovered Technique of Systematic Mind Control by John Lovern (1993) and Common Programs Observed in Survivors of Satanic Ritualistic Abuse by Neswald, Gould, and Graham-Costain (1991). Lumping these together despite the different authors because they're in my "I can't 100% trust these but the information is, in general, useful and many survivors share these" category. The first also includes sketches by survivors, but we're partial to the second one because we don't have spin programming.

On top of this list, there are HUNDREDS of sources that do not use the term "programming" but regardless, refer to similar processes. Too many to list. I hope this is a good starting point though!

hey there! if you dont mind me asking, what does programmed mean coming from a traumagenic system? ive only ever seen endos use that one so im curious what it means to someone who Legitimately has DID. /gen thank you! :-)

Hi, I'll answer this the best I can.

Programmed means that someone has undergone trauma programming. It's not exclusive to dissociative systems either - a singlet can also be programmed.

If you've been trauma programmed it just means that somebody has purposely used a more "organised" form of abuse to change or control you, and it leaves an imprint on who you are.

In systems this can mean having alters who behave in a way / have an identity that suits an abuser's preference, but it can also be done to singlets in small ways such as an abuser programming you to have a phobia of something.

But essentially, it's when an abuser has purposely used abuse and/or stressors to change the way you think or behave.

Honestly I don't know how an endo could claim to be trauma programmed bc that would mean they're not endogenic. To be programmed you literally have to undergo immense trauma that's how it works. But that's what it means anyway.

- Leo