Magpies

new home

[ are you sure you want add this character to this location? it may affect the further plot of the game. ]

redbanquet!dream 🩸

arts for the dsmp ask

part one because it exceeded the character limit

Thank youuu for the ghostbur response. It read my mind (or my notesapp, rather)! I anonymized myself because I didn't know how ghostbur criticism would be received (since he is VICIOUSLY defended sometimes) but you share my opinion!!!I  think that Ghostbur kind of facilitated the polarization of Wilbur Soot after his death, especially for Tommy. In truth, L’manbur was no saint and Pogbur was no villain, but it’s hard for Tommy to view it that way after Wilbur’s down spiral and death. He would have already deified L’manbur because he’s already associated with much more positive memories, and Wilbur's drastic change in Pogtopia* would have left him a little traumatized at how different his family member/close friend had become, leading him to shift his focus more on happier times (and try to reclaim them, through trying to win back L’manburg and the version of Wilbur he seemed to have lost). Compared to Pogbur, L’manbur seemed like a saint. L’manbur began to symbolize that safety, that kindness that had suddenly “vanished” from Pogtopia Wilbur. And then, of course, that “new” version of Wilbur blows up L’Manburg and any hopes of reclaiming that stability. Tommy would not easily accept that the Wilbur who did all of this is the same as the beloved President Soot. *Pogtopia WIlbur’s change wasn’t that drastic, actually.  Wilbur was canonically a little unstable/stressed during the presidential era, but never opened up to anyone– especially not Tommy, who looked up to him. So to an outsider, Wilbur’s descent looked like an almost sudden collapse. But then Ghostbur is added to the mix. He isn’t L’manbur, not at all, because even L’manbur had suffered and grown as a result (Eret’s betrayal, etc etc), but he’s the closest thing to the Wilbur from the happier memories. He isn’t Wilbur BEFORE the suffering, but he’s Wilbur if the suffering never happened. And Tommy, having just lost a brother figure and been exiled a second time, isn’t going to try to make that distinction. When he or anyone else asks Ghostbur why Alivebur did what he did and Ghostbur can’t answer, Tommy relents– and at that point, Ghostbur no longer is a way to heal from Wilbur's death, he becomes a means for escapism. It’s not Ghostbur’s fault, he doesn’t mean to have this effect on anyone, but it doesn’t mean that he didn’t cause it. You hear this polarization in what Tommy tells Tubbo when they’re going to attack Dream for the last time (in the Final Waltz SAD-ist animatic): “ You know the OLD Wilbur? Let’s make him proud.” ...But there really isn’t an OLD or NEW Wilbur at all. Wilbur has always been Wilbur, yet everyone seems to subconsciously separate “L’manbur” and “Pogbur” into two completely different people. The Saint and the Devil. When Revivebur comes back, he isn’t L’Manbur OR Ghostbur. Revivebur is different, different from what Tommy remembers L’Manbur to be, and Ghostbur is gone because of his return.  

this is such a good analysis

i will say i dont think ghostbur ruined c!crimeboys, i think he was more of a symbol of one of my favorite themes in c!crimeboys which is change:

c!tommy as you mentioned does not like change, so much of his arc is surrounded by this air of things changing before he can really process them, and being forced to pick up the pieces, even though he wasnt the one who caused the change in the first place (this is where a lot of the parallels between him and jesse from breaking bad come in for me, because while he is not an innocent, he suffers the consequences of other people’s actions far too often, with barely anyone actually recognizing that he’s allowed to be upset over how unfair it is)

meanwhile c!wilbur wants change, but only change he can control. control is such a big thing for c!wilbur, and he wants to have control over as much as he can in order to protect those he loves, and often he has to change things to do this. however, change does not listen to someone in charge, which is the major struggle c!wilbur has, and often he creates consequences that tommy has to deal with (especially in the case of when he blew up l’manburg) and in the end, its not something he can learn to accept, and thats why its his downfall (this is a big part of why he blew up l’manburg. he wanted the change, he wanted the control over what he created, but the change wasnt the change he wanted and controlled

so this is the constant strife with c!crimeboys: they are always moving in different directions. c!wilbur embraces change that he controls while c!tommy tries to deny change because its how he feels in control. neither of them really have control over anything, but tommy is the only one who can really accept this, even if he doesnt want to.

so to me, this is what ghostbur symbolizes. he symbolizes the opposite of what c!wilbur is because he can never change, and he cant feel in control of anything. so c!tommy gets a very altered view of c!wilbur because of ghostbur and the way he allows him to cling onto a past that doesnt actually exist, and it largely symbolizes this constant fight they have. they’re brothers, but they’re destined to be each other’s downfall if they actually remain with each other

La Belle Dame sans Merci by Paul Julien Meylan

Welcome to a new episode of Sapphire Rambles, today's topic being:

Just as c!Tommy is a simbol of Care, c!Fundy is a simbol of Love.

Let me explain.

(There are going to be 3 principal points to this rant, and each of them is gonna end with a Tl;dr in purple, so it's easier to follow)

If you're a regular in the Fundy tag (or in the Ranboo tag since this argument gets often brought up in relation to C!Ranboo), you might have already seen some rants talking about how C!Fundy is an incredibly loving person, willing to chase after the people he care about if he sees the tiniest hint that mending their relationship is possible, even if they hurted him in the past.

Yeah you are going to see the same argument again here in the first part, but I promise this gets interesting

This became more clear after the Break, when he decided to try and mend his relationship with Philza and Ranboo even if they weren't at all on good terms at the moment, but he thought it was worth it so he tried and will keep on trying anyways, but we have examples of Fundy's really loving and forgiving nature back to the Revolutionary era

Everyone knows about Eret's betrayal I'm sure, but one thing people seem to skim over is how it effected Fundy, because there's the really high possibility that he was the one who was hurted the most by it.

For everyone who has some spotty memory (me too sometimes fam), Eret was the closest person to Fundy at the time, the two being really close friends, so the betrayal must have had a terrible effect on his emotional health, but you know how it went?

It went that Fundy was the first person to reach out to Eret and start to forgive his actions. Fundy always valued his friendships above the side he was in. So even tho he was a L'manburg abitant, he still thought of Eret as a dear friend to him and did his best to not make them feel alone or isolated

There are really few examples of people Fundy actually has an issue with, but even here Hate is a strong and mostly wrong word to apply, for example:

- Wilbur: as we are shown in the interactions with Ghostbur, Fundy didn't hate Wilbut for how he neglected and patronized him, it made him upset (as we saw when Ghostbur called him "his little champion" and he ran away) but he never hated Wilbur for that. The only thing he didn't forgive him was deciding to die, leaving him. And his issue with Ghostbur is not aknowledging or taking responsability. But he doesn't hate Ghostbur, he can talk to him in a civil manner even if the Ghost pretty much upsets him. And about Wilbur? Fundy loved Wilbur, the thing that hurted him was he taking the decision to definitivly leave him.

- Technoblade: even before Doomsday, the correct word of Fundy's feelings towards Techno has never been Hate, but Fear. A lot of people seemed to miss this point about the Butcher Army as a whole, but they weren't move by hate, even if they tried to make it look like they were. They were terrified. On their way to Techno's house, it was more clear than ever that they were TERRIBLY afraid of Techno. The Butcher army was never a movement of hate, but a bad reaction to a traumatic event that scarred them with fear. Also, after the Break? Fundy understands why Techno wanted L'manburg gone, so he doesn't hate him for that.

- Jschlatt: if you followed Fundy's pov, it won't be a surprise me saying that Fundy doesn't hate Jschlatt, but it may be news to other people, since one of the last interaction between the two was... anything but positive. I still shiver at the caravan scene. But even after all he's done, Fundy can't bring himself to completly hate Jschlatt, even if he did a lot of horrible things and was a horrible person, he still doesn't hate him. Fundy took with him Jschlatt's sword, keeping it as a relic and a memory of the man.

There is no one in the server, probably not even Dream Himself, that Fundy full-on hates. No matter how much they hurted him and everyone else, he just. Doesn't hate them. He's able to see the humanity in everyone, even if he wishes he could just hate people that wronged him. He was always forgiving and loving, these two aspects of him becoming even more prominent after his Break.

Tl;dr: Fundy is a character incredibly full of love and almost always willing to forgive and mend relationships with people he cares about at the moment he sees the possibility.

Now that I got the part most talked about out of the way, I'm taking the second tangent. Let's talk about Self-love.

It's not news the fact that there are really few characters, if not actually none of them, who love themselves. Might it be for trauma or for guilt, none of the characters actually love themself and act out of self-love.

Sometimes there are characters that act for themselves, but that is different from acting out of self-love.

Acting for themselves means doing something to achieve an objective that you want, for example: Eret's betrayal.

Eret betrayed L'Manburg becayse he was promised the role of King of the SMP by Dream, she acted out of her wish for power and control. That's an example of acting for yourself.

Acting out of self-love means doing something with the only cardinal reason being that it's good for you, taking care of yourself doing something that makes you feel better and healthier. That is acting out of self-love.

And, if you look at the server, you can easily see that no one has ever done that, expect for one single time.

The closest wrong thing you might be thinking off right now is when Tommy escaped from exile, but that was not an act driven by self-love. Sure, Tommy saved himself and went towards a healthier mindset, but what drove him towards that direction was not a desire to be better and good for himself, but rage towards Dream and a desire to be back to his family and friends.

You know what the only act that could possibly be out os self-love is?

Fundy going away for a years and a half, taking a break from everyone

Think about it for a second. Why did he do that? Let's start putting away the wrong possibilities:

- Doing it for someone: Fundy at the moment was heavily spiraling towards paranoia, wanting to be a villain to make everyone hate him. If that was his mindset at the time, why would he even want to get a break for anyone?

- Having a second cause: what second cause could there be for a choice like getting away from an unhealthy situation to heal? The only second reason a choice like this could have is healing to help someone else heal when you're feeling better, but refer to the last point

- ... that's virtually it

The only reason that could have caused Fundy to decide to take a break from the whole situation because it was unhealthy and heal was because he wanted to heal. For himself. He genuinly wanted himself to feel better for the only reason being, simply, feeling better.

Fundy is the only character for now to have ever taken an important choice for making himself feel better and letting himself heal.

Tl;dr: Fundy taking the year and a half break was the only decision on the entire SMP taken only out of self-love and genuine desire to feel better for the sole reason of feeling better.

Fundy is a representation of love, in any shape or form. He is unapologetically full of love and care, both for himself and for the people around him.

Anyway, the third part is a theory, if younwill kindly follow me:

The above analysis is the exact reason why the Egg causes Fundy an extreme repulsion.

Since both Fundy and Tubbo said that the Egg seems connected to Dreamons, I'm going to roll with that idea in mind.

As we all know, one of the only known weaknesses of a Dreamon is Love and this Dreamon seems to be acting and controlling people out of wishes and desires.

Fundy should be a perfect candidate for the Egg to manipulate, isn't he? One of Fundy's most known characteristic is his research for love, affection and appreciation from people, and we know the egg has no problem using love to manipulate someone, because he is manipulating Bbh using his (platonic?) love for Skeppy against him.

So why the egg would cause a repulsing reaction to Fundy?

Tommy seems immune because he doesn't wish for anything right now, he has everything that he wants

Tubbo also has a repulsive reaction, but is not a hateful reaction but one driven by fear and sadness, the Egg purposefully trying to scare him away, probably to make him unable to fight against him

But why Fundy's reaction would be full-on hate?

I think the egg was trying to do with Fundy the same thing he's doing with Tubbo, scaring him so badly to drive them to the point where they cannot fight back out of complete fear, but it's not working.

It's not working because the Egg fears Fundy, fears how full of pure, unfiltered and unapologetic love his heart is, fears how he's the living representation of the fact that love, of any kind, is the strongest emotion out there. Fundy already was able to defeat a Dreamon because of his own love, and now that he's more emotionally stable and has decided to follow his heart more, mending relationship with people he loves even if they hurt him?

Fundy is an incredibly dangerous threat to the Egg.

So fear is not enough to keep the fox away, he cannot let him anywhere near his plans.

He fears that if he tried the fear treatment on Fundy, Fundy would be able to break out of the web of terror as soon as someone he loved was caught in the crossfire

So he tried pushing him away in a different way, using hate instead of fear, because since Fundy is such a love-driven person all around, the best way to keep him away is to use hate, just like Tubbo is often driven by hope and optimism, so the best way to keep him far fron where he could be a danger is to use sadness and fear.

Tl;dr: The Egg is making Fundy hate him because that's the only emotion that could actually keep Fundy away from him, because he, being a Dreamon, fears how full of love Fundy is.

Some s2 thoughts. Fun treasure hunt :D

1/2

why do you think Dream told Sam 'all about exile'? obviously, this didn't lead to pleasant consequences for him

it's interesting, right? especially because--while exile wasn't exactly the most unknown thing at that time--it's far from the highlight of c!dream's Villain Actions in the majority of the dsmp population's collective consciousness, at this point. it's been about a month since c!tommy ran away from exile, and since then c!Dream has done Doomsday and then the staged finale. for someone like c!sam, it makes a lot more sense for c!dream to judge him as caring more about how Fran would've been taken as leverage in the disc vault, or how their old home together the community house was blown up by dream. while i have no doubts that c!sam would've interrogated c!dream about exile anyway, c!dream didn't have to tell him "all about it" in a way that had c!sam completely horrified within that first week. and frankly, no matter what cruelty c!sam might've already been up to, c!dream wasn't going to crack to the point of confessing anything he didn't want to confess over the course of like, five days in the very beginning of the prison arc.

so why does he? i'm sure he'd give you a whole host of rational reasons. c!tommy can't keep his mouth shut, obviously, so he assumed that c!tommy would spill the beans sooner or later. provoking c!sam from the getgo gives him a good idea of what to expect from the rest of his stay here, which will help him navigate the situation in an optimal way. mentioning c!tommy affects c!sam obviously, emotionally, which keeps him too off-balance to think about any logical inconsistencies in things like the staged finale and ever suspecting that c!dream wanted to be in the prison in the first place. if he's forthcoming about this Terrible Crime, then c!sam will be too focused on interrogating him about tommy to ask questions about the revive book, or vikkstar and lazar, or punz. and so on.

they're good enough reasons. valid reasons, sure. c!dream is very good at coming up with lists of rational reasons behind his actions, objective courses of actions that leave him firmly in control. c!dream also--in the process of the plan to put himself in the prison--dies at least five times, as far as we know of, and likely many more (if we are to believe that he did experiments on his own limbo pre-prison, which i think we Should, considering the circumstances, then he needed to lose his initial three lives to even test the revive book on him, not to mention however it was that he got another three lives in order to lose two in the staged finale) and starts swimming in the lava not even 24 hours into his imprisonment. just because a reason makes the most sense or is the most rational doesn't make it the real reason why c!dream does much of anything, which is something he never quite gets around to admitting to himself.

So while I’m all for drawing the conversation away from legality, trauma, innocence, bashing c!Tommy in the name of c!Dream lol….etc. I did basically write this essay about c!Tommy first and someone asked me to share, so I shall. @poisedava this is for you. ;) <3

Here’s the thing and this is important - it does not go both ways. If c!Tommy wants to be considered an innocent ‘child’, a teenager, a minor, who is too young and naive to know that what he does is wrong and how that hurts people and has consequences then he doesn’t just get to act like an adult and start wars, serve as a government official, build nations, torture, steal, murder, enslave, commit terrorism, blackmail, assassinate…etc and face no repercussions because ‘he didn’t know better.’ If you want to act like an adult then you’ll be treated as such.

Now I don’t believe that we should view the dsmp in the realm of irl crimes, since there is no legal system or set of rules in place in the dsmp (besides the ones c!Dream set and everyone breaks of course), but if ya’ll are going to say c!Dream deserves prison because of his ‘crimes’ and write off c!Tommy’s actions as less because he is a minor then I will look at it, especially because the term ‘minor’ is connected to the legal system of our world and that is where we are deriving this perceived innocence.

On that note, there are crimes in many countries that even if you’re a minor or a child you can be tried as an adult for reasons like a severe crime (for example first degree murder) and/or if it is a repeated offense despite disciplinary actions. In this case, both apply, as many of the things listed above are repeated abhorrent offenses. Secondly, the definition of ‘minor’ and the age of becoming an adult, while typically set at 18 is not universal. In Scotland for instance, 16 is the legal age of adulthood, which is how old c!Tommy was when he joined the smp.

But looking beyond legally speaking, I for one hardly consider 16 to be a child or an innocent naive minor in the first place. At 16 I could legally drive and drove me and my sister to school. I made sure people had what they needed to keep things from falling apart, whether that’s helping with grocery shopping, making dinner, running errands, helping with homework, making lunches… etc. I hardly think someone who drives is a child unable to face consequences like speedings, drinking and driving… etc. On the topic of age I would also like to highlight that the gap is like 5 years, which all things considered is not a very big gap, not to mention one of the reasons young people are considered irresponsible and given a bit of slack is because until the age of 25 your brain is still developing, and as c!Dream was also under the age of 25 that also applies to him and a huge portion of the server.

But being young doesn’t give you a free pass to do whatever you want and then complain about the consequences. You don’t get to just run a red light and kill kids crossing the road and claim innocence because you are a new driver. Because you are young, because you were distracted, because you were just trying to change the song and didn’t see them, because you didn't mean to. You are still responsible for killing people.

And if you don't want to be responsible, if you want to be treated like a child, then stay a child. But as a child you are not considered mature enough to know what is right from wrong, which is where guidance from guardians comes in. Children (really generally speaking), don’t know better, which is why they get grounded, spanked, their mouths washed out with soap, forced to write lines, get things taken away, time out, scolding… etc - punished. They are not free and independent to do what they like. Now obviously, when it comes to the dsmp there are really no such guardians or parents in charge of the minors, but the point still stands, if you do not understand your actions are wrong then someone should teach you and (whether you or not you agree with that) that is often through punishment.

Under that guise, c!Dream taking away c!Tommy’s discs for starting wars and breaking the rules and murdering him, is a form of parenting. (You can argue with whether you consider it good parenting… but that's not really the point). Even further, Exile then could be considered a more extreme form of time out and/or grounding, which is extreme because the violations are extreme. If you steal a cookie you are forced to go to your room for a bit, if you burn down the king’s house then you get exiled from the land. In Exile, he is forced to lose items which could be considered revoking privileges and getting his belongings taken away (like if your parents ever took your phone for a week). Hell, even hitting him with the axe could be seen as a super extreme spanking for not complying with his punishment. Now am I staying that makes it justified? Am I saying those were ok things to happen? Am I saying c!Tommy deserved being treated like that? No. Not really, I am just simply pointing out that in a world where the crime isn’t spray painting a building but burning said building down in an act of terrorism it almost makes sense in a twisted way that the punishments are more severe to fit the infraction.

(I would also like to point out that c!Phil has a moment with c!Tommy where he forced him to smelt stone and then destroy it over and over again and isn’t that kinda what c!Dream was doing in Exile?… just saying, not to say the behavior is right, just something I noticed and thought was interesting.) And the reason why the act of losing items is important is because a huge part of his character arc is surrounded by the value of objects and treating people like he treats objects. It was a big moment of deliberation for him to give up the discs for c!Tubbo’s life. Do you even realize how screwed up that is? A person over an object. But the thing is, somehow in c!Tommy’s mind those two things were synonymous, he was never there for c!Tubbo when c!Tubbo needed someone to have his back. When c!Tubbo goes to get revenge for his missing child and dead husband, he teams up with his literal worst enemies the people who took his canonical lives. Where was c!Tommy?… But whenever c!Tommy needed c!Tubbo to go after c!Dream or support him even with the things c!Tubbo disagreed with, he’s there. Honestly, he’s less of a best friend and more of a sword. The dsmp completes c!Tommy’s character arc by him giving up the discs for c!Tubbo’s life and to for once listen to c!Dream. His character arc, put very very simply, was valuing and treating people as people instead of things.

So the - it’s understandable, it’s less bad than what c!Dream did because he’s young and didn’t know better - is just not reasonable to me. Exile being used as justification isn’t really valid either. Ok so for a week, yea he was abused, he lost his things, people didn’t visit him, sure some were tricked into not visiting him, c!Dream took all of his items over and over, c!Dream hurt him when he did not comply, sure c!Tommy was suicidal as a result. But ya know, when no one else could be bothered to show up, c!Dream came by everyday. Plus abuse on the server is like scuffed so I hardly hold Exile as a gold standard for trauma like y’all I don’t know if I need to make a complication of how many times on the dsmp people hit each other with axes and hurt eachother or force eachother to comply or something. Or if I need to make a list of everytime c!Tommy has done worse even before Exile, but yeeeesh. Like don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying Exile was deserved, I don’t think anyone deserves abuse. Period. But on the scale of the dsmp and considering how many people he hurt and the circumstances that got him there, I find it hard to feel for him. And that’s coming from someone who (before medication) used to have panic attacks multiple times a week, who has been bullied, who has been isolated, who has been abandoned and betrayed by my best friends, who has been so so lonely, who has been suicidal, and who was a nasty person as a result of being hurt. So I get it, I really do. But to me it doesn’t really matter much, it doesn’t make him the hero, or redeemed, or innocence, or any more likable, especially when so many other characters on the dsmp have similar instances on their arcs.

And if we want to compare, c!Tommy’s ‘crimes’ to c!Dream’s because he’s ‘just as bad,’ the thing is, I’m not so sure that’s true, for many reasons. One of which is that c!Dream has really only ever reacted. Over and over he gets pushed into reacting, but usually he gives people a way out and he tries to do the better thing at first, but eventually after failing he turns towards the latter. While on the other hand, c!Tommy continues to provoke, over and over and over. Look no further than the finale where he shows up to the prison to assassinate c!Dream, after c!Dream literally hasn’t done anything to him since the prison break (unless you count c!Tommy and c!Wilbur breaking in… which again - provoke). And there really is no such transformation for c!Tommy, he doesn’t start off trying to do the right thing at all, which also brings us to motivation… which continues to baffle me, what is c!Tommy’s motivation? Because if it’s truly to have a home and be happy with his friends then why does he constantly do things that would jeopardize that?

So, you want me to feel bad for and root for someone - who often worked against their own stated motivation, who did drugs, tortured people, started wars, killed, enslaved, destroyed, used, stole, was sexist, xenophobic, disrespectful and constantly talked over people, who didn’t even have his friend’s back more importantly his best friend’s, c!Tubbo’s, back who continued to risk his life for c!Tommy’s schemes - because what? He is a minor? Because he was abused and suicidal after facing the consquences of his own actions? Because we get his pov? Because he declared himself the hero? Because c!Dream personally targeted him for no reason - because he’s so innocent and was no threat to c!Dream… after he literally KILLED HIM multiple times with much less armor, then with no armor at all (in one of the first streams)? …..…. Like heh?

Ah nah you’re so right… c!Dream definitely deserved prison - He killed c!Tommy after all!… in a war, where he was given a chance to surrender or face no mercy… in a fair dual, where he set the terms… in prison, where he provoked c!Dream, killed the cat c!Dream admitted to caring about all after c!Dream had been no doubt going insane from being isolated in prison for months already… I mean… come on, in no way do I see any of those as specifically targeting c!Tommy (don’t even get me started on the finale where he mentions Spirit just to piss c!Dream off).

And ya know, after saying all of that, I would even go as far as to say that c!Tommy is not a hero, nor even an anti-hero, since he is neither selfless, noble or full of goodness, which are some of the more fundamental qualities. In fact, Theseus, who c!Techno calls c!Tommy, is a Greek hero who in the beginning becomes infamous because he slays many savage murderers and monsters on his way to Athens. But I ask you, what savagery has c!Tommy stopped? What noble feats has he done for the sake of the safety of people?… He may be a protagonist, but honestly I don’t think he qualifies as a hero. Sure, both c!Dream and c!Techno’s reference Theseus, but they are really more highlighting the end of his life. Overall, I don’t think hero (even a flawed Greek one) is an adequate description for him. Perhaps anti-villain would be more fitting, a villain with some heroic traits?… I mean his most heroic moments are probably the duel, willing to fight in doomsday with or without help, and willing to be nuked, but like eh… the first two were over a piece of land, a country. It wasn’t about protecting people. I mean in both of those he was part of provoking the conflict in the first place, so is it heroic to help in a conflict that you helped cause? And in the last one, I mean it is the end of his arc so anti-villain technically still works for having a good selfless heroic moment at the end ;) ……

The Witness by Eduardo Domínguez