Otto Loves Helaena Almost As Much As I Do!

Alicent and Criston have every right to be together.

I’ve read a lot of posts regarding their non-existent hypocrisy and I’d like to clear some things up.

First and foremost, stop using Alicent’s “Where is duty, where is sacrifice?” line against her or Nyra’s outrageous “Exhausting, wasn’t it?” speech because you think you’re eating when you’re, in fact, starving. Alicent has done her duty and sacrificed herself. It’s the only thing she’s been doing for the past 20 years. She gave the man she was forced to marry four children and she took care of him despite all the shit he put her through. She has lived all her life based on her principles and now her husband is gone. She mourned him, she buried him, it’s been more than 10 days since his death (confirmed that E1 S2 takes place 10 days after Lucerys’ death) and she is finally fucking free. She deserves a sliver of comfort. Alicent is the only one in this series that’s been faithful and dutiful to a T, yet look where that got her. If someone has the right to break the law a little bit, it’s definitely her.

That being said, I don’t know when it was decided that Alicent is a pious saint that can do no wrong, but I need to remind y’all that following a religion does not magically prevent you from sinning. Is she committing fornication? Obviously. However, you are all under this impression that this is hypocritical on her behalf because she berated Rhaenyra for it when they were younger, without considering that her anger was justified for a myriad of other reasons, such as (but not limited to): 1) the fact that Rhaenyra’s freedom to marry whomever she pleased was a privilege granted to her thanks to Alicent’s efforts, who supported her even if Rhaenyra hated her, yet her friend casually threw that away, 2) the fact that Rhaenyra lied to her by swearing on her morher’s grave and never even mentioned Criston, 3) the fact that Rhaenyra had the guts to call her “sister” while lying to her face, 4) the fact that her lies resulted in Otto getting fired since Rhaenyra misled Alicent so that she speaks to Viserys in favour of her friend and betraying her own father by siding against him (a decision she wouldn’t have made if she knew the truth), leaving her completely alone and friendless at court, even if he was right all along and finally 5) the fact that Rhaenyra is the most sought after bachelorette in the whole world and by having sex she undermines herself (Rhaenyra knows this well, hence why she denies these accusations) and literally endangers herself, because had she been married to any other man but Laenor and had this man found out his wife and future queen is not a virgin, imagine the fucking horrors she could have been subjected to. Like, I hate to break it to you, but a 40-year-old widow, who’s had four kids and has completed her duty to the point where she is actually no longer needed and could leave the palace to go live the rest of her life in peace somewhere else and no one would notice her absence (literally though, she has birthed heirs, her husband is dead, her son is a grown adult king, her job is done there), having sex, is not the same as an 18-year-old princess and future heir in her prime, whose purity is linked to her worth, getting caught drunk in a brothel, hooking up with her uncle and losing her virginity to her guard, all in one night. Viserys himself was outraged. There’s lows and then there’s lows, y’all.

By the way, the crazy assumptions that Alicent has been cheating on Viserys with Criston for a while now need to stop. When Olivia Cooke said that they had filmed a messy sex scene with Fabien Frankel in a recent interview, she never said this was for S1 of HOTD. I don’t know where y’all got that from, but even if it was true, that scene has been scrapped so it is not canon. And don’t make me laugh about Daeron, a dragon rider who canonically has Valyrian features, potentially having brown hair. You’re all so blinded by your hatred for Alicent that you want her to be a lying hypocrite in order to make yourselves feel better about Rhaenyra’s mishaps, that you don’t get that the whole point of her and Criston getting physical is that she is a tortured woman who is finally able to break free, not that she has been a hypocrite all along. You’re heavily misunderstanding her arc.

Finally, when it comes to my good man Criston, y’all have lost it completely. No, Alicent is not raping him, unless he tells her to stop and she closes the door behind her like Rhaenyra did that is. No, Criston did not lie about how important his honour is to him. There’s a whole article on how Clare Kilner, the director of E4 S1, decided that Cole removing his armour slowly was necessary because it symbolises his inner conflict and uncertainty over breaking his vow: should he soil his cloak for the sake of the woman he loves? And he does soil it, because he thinks she loves him back. But that honourable man dies the day Rhaenyra tells him that he’ll never be anything more than a side piece to her. This man stops giving a flying fuck about his honour, oath, position and life. He is trying to kill himself. And you know what stops him? Alicent. Alicent is the only thing between him and death, the only person to show him kindness and understanding, to pull him up from the lowest point in his life. I don’t think you heard Alicent in E7 S1: “No, you’re sworn to me!”. Y’all. His life is hers. He doesn’t care about Rhaenyra, his job, Viserys, anyone else at this point. Only Alicent exists in his mind, Fabien himself has said time and time again that his loyalty to her is unwavering. He only exists for Alicent’s sake. He’s who you wish Daemon was. Crying that “Criston is a bad knight and a liar because he broke his chastity oath yet again!” is so pointless because that knight has been dead since Rhaenyra’s marriage to Laenor. What does an oath mean when you find out the people you swore it to have betrayed you?

I am continuously perplexed at how a show as objectively bad and problematic as hotd keeps inspiring outstanding fanfics like yours and @gwenllian-in-the-abbey’s. Truly it’s a mystery to me, especially considering that the books covering the dance are supposed to be quite mediocre as well from what I’ve perceived. Just so you know,with that trailer out now I’m gonna completely blend out the events of the show and consider our fathers clad in red canon

@gwenllian-in-the-abbey AAAAAAAAAAAAAA, I think George's gonna order a hit on us:D

I'm glad you like our slightly destructive approach to teh canon. I'm mostly fueled by spite and my dislike for George's and HBO's complete disregard for the historical context of the stuff they draw their inspiration from (you can't do the Matilda vs Stephen showdown and expect the same sense of injustice, when your main conflict is about Viserys' imbecilic approach to rules, Rhaenyra's weak-ass claim and papa/dragons being her go-to solution to all her problems, Daemon being a chaos gremlin, Corlys' malignant ambition and the Hightowers being the only ones who actually care about the rule of law.)

A lesbian romance doesn't automatically turn a story into a feminist manifesto, nor does a girlboss who's treated by the narrative as the second coming of Christ. Context matters and it's a mistake to view the Dance through the lens of modern ideals about egalitarianism.

GRRM's hubris when it comes to "Aragorn's tax policies" is just another thing that enrages me and Gwenllian, because the man completely misunderstands the medieval legal codes. Just because they were complex that doesn't mean they were fucking contradictory on their own; no one wanted civil wars breaking out each time a monarch died.

Problems happened when two countries with generational beefs worked on two different principles of succession, ie. England (male-preference primogeniture) vs France (male-only primogeniture), or if there was some dynastic fuckery that completely messed up the clear-cut succession lines with usurpations and cousin marriages (Yorks vs Lancasters).

Had Richard II (the son of the Black Prince) died peacefully without issue, the succession would have followed through the line of the Duke of Clarence, with Edmund the Earl of March eventually becoming the king (and he was Richard's heir, btw).

But that's not what happened. The son of John of Gaunt usurped the throne and it was then passed down through his line, because he was the crowned king. Now, you can argue whether or not he had any right to do the usurpation in the first place and whether or not he was the legitimate king and you bet people back then argued about that too. This ambiguity is how you create a proper narrative about actually conflicting claims. The only thing propping up Rhaenyra against her brother is the fact that Viserys is a moron.

How the fuck can I take F&B seriously and without the Dead Sea's worth of salt, when it pretty much blows Jaehaerys' posthumous dick about his wisdom when he "let" the council of 101 decide the succession (while politely ignoring the fact that Jaehaerys' own claim is legit only in the cases of either full salic or semi-salic succession, ie male-only), while never once it calls out Viserys out on his extremely dangerous decision. He gets to die venerated as the peaceful grandpa and all the blame for his incompetence is piled on Aegon II and Alicent.

Let's go through the possible succession systems, shall we?

If we follow male-preference primogeniture, the legitimate line of kings ends with Aerea because she was the eldest child of Aegon the Uncrowned, Maegor's eldest nephew. Only after she and her sister die without issue, Jaehaerys can become the king. Jaehaerys' canon ascension works only because Rhaena gave up her daughters' claims. The next in line would be Aemon and after him Rhaenys. But that's not what happened.

If we follow the salic law (male only), the legitimate line of the kings goes Aegon I -> Aenys I -> Aegon Uncrowned -> Jaehaerys I -> Viserys I -> Aegon II. This is probably what Jaehaerys wanted to ensure, since he challenged Maegor's kingship in the first place.

If a crowned king can choose his heir, then Jaehaerys was never a legitimate king and Aerea was the true queen, because Maegor, who had won his crown in the trial by combat, chose her as his heir.

What about the principle of seniority? Cognatic seniority where men and women have equal claims is out of the question since Aegon I was the crowned king, not Visenya. Male-only seniority would go Aegon I -> Aenys I -> Maegor I (uncontested!) -> Aegon Crowned This Time -> Viserys the Not Tortured to Death -> Jaehaerys I -> Aemon (only if his uncle Viserys has no issue) -> Baelon -> Vaegon -> Viserys I -> Daemon (EW).

Notice the distinct lack of Rhaenyra.

Team Black keeps mentioning the widow's law, but that's a bulk of nonsense. I suppose the misunderstanding originates from a (willful) misinterpretation of this passage. The book says:

Now, I highly doubt Jaehaerys intended for the law to mean that a daughter from the first marriage should come before the sons from the second. The wording is a bit unlucky, but I suppose the intention was to establish the legal position of the second wife and her children as united with the position of her step-children - she has the same duties towards them as if they were own, and the same goes the other way. Which would make sense. Because otherwise, no one would be desperate enough to marry a widower with daughters. Since we know that title and land ownerships have remained in the same families without changing hands once or twice since the implementation of the law, I really doubt the team black's literal interpretation of the passage was the one intended. Ffs, Viserys was pushed to marry again because he had only one daughter, meaning, this law wasn't viewed the way the Team Black wishes for. And I'm not even delving into the fact that this would be a female inheritance hack penned by Jaehaerys, if that was the case. Talk about ooc.

So, yeah, we're taking Gyldayne's interpretation of the past with so much salt our hearts are gonna fail.

Me at the function (House of the Dragon watch party) sharing what I learned from this open access book chapter about authority in Game of Thrones

You've gotta love Jews more than you hate Nazis.

You've gotta love trans folks more than you hate TERFs.

You've gotta love your unhoused neighbors more than you hate the billionaires.

You've gotta love immigrants more than you hate ICE.

You've gotta love queer kids more than you hate christian fundamentalists.

You've gotta love fat people more than you hate the diet industry.

You've gotta love disabled people more than you hate the insurance companies.

You've gotta love your fellow humans more than you hate the worst that humanity has to offer. You don't have to like every person you're fighting for, and you sure as hell don't have to give up your righteous anger, but hate is ultimately corrosive.

You've gotta love.

I sat down to write my reaction post to the second ep of HOTD and…realized Idk how to approach it, where to start. And not because I hated every single thing about it – like with ep1 there were lots of good or at least interesting moments. There were other choices I wouldn’t have personally liked in any circumstance but that weren’t necessarily bad in and of themselves if they’d been in another show, surrounded with other context or other scenes. The problem is how ridiculously biased this writing is and how that bias and the ridiculousness of it permeates everything, even the parts that were good or fine or reasonably in character. We knew, of course, even from S1, that the writing was biased. But this season it feels especially blatant.

How am I supposed to feel about say…Jae’s funeral? On one hand, a gut-wrenching scene, carried so well by Olivia and Phia’s superb understated acting. It’s a scene that has every reason to be there – royal funeral processions/spectacles were (and still are) normal. And even if it’s not a regular occurrence in this universe (questionable), it’s a very good and smart play by Otto. On the other hand, is it not suspect that the funeral of this child was less of a melancholy moment of mourning like Luke’s funeral (despite the obviously grieving family) but focused on Helaena’s panic attack at being too close to too many people, and with the distraction of Jae’s cart getting stuck in the mud (was that supposed to be symbolic of something???). Do we not remember TB shrieking long before the episode aired that the Greens have a public funeral for Jae “just to make the Greens look bad”? These people are known for the worst faith takes, so what does it say that the writers apparently agree with them?

How am I supposed to feel about Alicent’s inability to successfully, if at all, to comfort her children? Is this a potentially interesting exploration of how her own grief, guilt, self-blame/low self-esteem, and complicated relationship with her kids due to their common and individual family traumas (and, in Helaena’s case…neurodivergence, I guess?) have and are affecting her? Or is it just a low-key attempt at character assassination, given that last season she was shown as perfectly capable of showing affection to her children (more than one with Aemond, hugging Helaena and making other attempts when she was less receptive, even kissing Aegon at the coronation despite their turbulent relationship)?

Is Alicent’s self-blame and guilt a potentially interesting exploration of how grief can affect people, of what happens when a person feels they are breaking some moral or ethical or religious code of conduct that they sincerely believe in/believe they can be punished for breaking? Or does the narrative blame her too/knows that a large chunk of the audience will too or at least will find the self-blame and guilt pathetic or unsympathetic (because goodness knows that’s all Twitter/X has to say on the matter, it seems).

How am I supposed to feel about Aegon hanging the ratcatchers? Of course, Otto is right – this was a terrible thing to do, not just because it was politically a misstep, but first of all because there were many innocent people executed without trial. It’s a canonical event, and in context of Aegon’s grief and fury, it’s interesting in and of itself, it’s part of the commentary on the wreckage that war and nobles’ games cause. I’d have no issue with it, except…. Why was this made into a literal cartoon-villain-esque kick the dog moment? By making me feel sorry for the sad, cute puppy am I supposed to think that hanging Cheese was somehow wrong? After he sawed off a child’s head? And why is it that the smallfolk get angry when Aegon hands the ratcatchers but not when Rhaenys trembles dozens of smallfolk in the dragon pit? How come Aegon is held accountable for all his mistakes, at least by the people closest to him, and Criston very specifically sends a kingsguard member to impersonate his twin and kill Rhaenyra, but the show removed maximum responsibility from Daemon and of course made sure that Rhaenya was just appalled by the whole thing. (And suddenly cares about Helaena? I actually rolled my eyes at that line so hard it hurt.)

What am I to think of the messy/awkward/complicated TG family dynamics? They’re interesting! They’re fun! They could make for some great television (and fic lol). I could/should/would enjoy this. But on the other hand, when TB get all these bonding moments, or the potential messiness (e.g. Rhaena feeling ignored by her father) is ignored in like 85% of situations? And when this imbalance is not at all in the book? (When it feels like they wanted to cut/held off on Daeron specifically because he was so sweet and mild tempered and beloved by everyone?) It becomes frustrating, not fun.

At what point do I need to decide that this show isn’t worth it? After all, I think the sentiment that “maybe this is just not telling the kind of story you want to hear/watch” is generally a wise approach. Except…that would hold if this was an original show or if it was one of those “loosely based on/inspired by” things that were not pretending to be adaptations. But when you’re advertised an adaptation, you’re not coming in blind. Ideally, you’re coming in knowing what sort of story you’re coming for, at the very least. Unlike  ASOIAF, the Dance is a fully finished story. There shouldn’t have been any “nasty surprises” like some people got in the last seasons in GoT…

But they mentioned Daeron by name. Tom’s acting is incredible. We know I’m not going anywhere for now lmao.

Maybe I won’t do my usual type of notes/reaction post this time, after all I’ve said so much of what I most feel right now anyway.

Sorry for the depression/pessimism guys. I’m just so tired.

Sorry my friend, but your mixing up roles, protections and purpose here. Lucerys was a messenger who should have been and was protected by guest right in neutral territory. Aemond did not attack him in Borros‘ hall, as Borros guaranteed for his safety and attacking him wouöd have been an affront to Lord Borros. He then proceeded to leave that protected space.

And at that point it is important to remember what his mission was. The group of people that you must not attack and I assume you are thinking of are parlamentarians. But they come in to main flavours

1. To negotiate an end to hostilies, either by offering a surrender of their own side or terms and conditions for a surrender by the opposition.

2. For humanitarian purposes, like exchanging prisoners, evacuating non-combattants, evacuating the wounded, in ancient times asking for permission to recover the dead after a defeat.

These are communications that need to take place even (or especially) during war time to avoid the war turning into a completely senseless slaughter of everyone that cannot end until one side is entirely killed off. And most crucially they do not harm any side but instead benefit both.

But Lucerys fits into neither category. He was not there to negotiate a surrender, as here had not been any hostilities between Rhaenyra and the Baratheons by that point and the humanitarian option doesn‘t make sense either. So even if we _weren‘t_ explicitly told we could very much infer what his purpose was: he was there to secure/raise an army for his mother. To make sure Borros Baratheon fulfilled the oaths his father had sworn to Rhaenyra. That means he was there in a military capacity, (as was Aemond btw.) and was a valid military target according to the rules of war. That is not to say he wasn‘t „innocent“ war is not just but he was certainly a valid target.

To illustrate that point further. It is a warcrime to shoot a soldier who leaves throws down his weapons, raises his hands above his head, waves a white hankerchief in the absence of an actual white flag and shouts „I surrender“ (actually that declaration is enough) even if he killed dozens or even hundreds of your friends, comrades or even family members, you are not allowed to kill him at that point. But a truck carrying ammunition to the battlefield you are allowed to destroy and kill the driver of, even if said driver is a seventeen year old fresh out of college, who was forced into service and never hurt a single living thing.

If you want to make the point that war had not broken out, I would argue that by that point blood had already been drawn by Rhaenys at the Drageon pit and even if the outbreak of further hostilities could still have been averted, his Graces Council was justified in operating in warlike conditions.

If you want a real world example of a somewhat similar situation in our world I encourage you to check out the Trent Affair during the American Civil War where to Confederate Diplomats where taken prisoner by the Union Navy vessel USS San Jacinto. It nearly ended in war between the US and Great Britain and was only averted by the release of the Envoys. This site here provides actual insight into british grievances. Note the conspicuous absence of „a Diplomat was taken prisoner“ as a complaint. The main issue is, that they were captured aboard a british vessel and british neutrality was therefor not sufficiently respected.

U.S. Naval Institute

The Trent Affair and its Implications

How the U.S. Navy seizure of a vessel carrying Confederate emissaries to Britain caused an international stir.

Regardless of our difference in opinion regarding the works of G.R.R.Martin and their HBO Adaptations, I hope you have a most pleasant day or night.

Best wishes.

Calling an envoy, a soldier and a threat, is quite literally the dumbest thing you can say. They are basically postmen with diplomatic immunity. It really sums up the extent of intelligence I have come to expect from team green fans. Lucerys was innocent and he will keep being it, murdering him was a war crime + king slaying being a taboo.

You can take your stupid posts somewhere else. Him saying "I will not fight you" isn't a joke, he is representative of borros's enemy and his only Job is to take a letter and bring back an answer, if he joins in fighting he starts a war.....like aemond did.

Please share.

Listen.

EVERYBODY knows (or should) that you DO. NOT. STOP. in Vidor, Texas. 

It’s best to just run out of gas elsewhere. Whatever you do, black folks, DO NOT STOP IN VIDOR, TEXAS. 

There’s a good chance you’ll get lynched or just come up missing - and I’m not joking.

also do NOT stop in Harrison, Arkansas!!!! (relatively close to OK and MI) a nazi town with a BIG KKK organization.

Reblog To Save Life

If he commited a war crime than there must have been a war. You kind of need one to have the other. Otherwise it would have been a „crime against peace“, but at a cursory analysis of the facts that does not seem to fit the bill either, and is very rarely used.

You are contradicting yourself.

European Union Agency for Asylum

6.2.1. Crime against peace, war crime, or crime against humanity

The European Union Agency for Asylum - EUAA is an agency of the European Union mandated with supporting Member States in applying the packag

Otto being there to prevent war from spreading does not negate war having broken out. It merely means that the Greens are willing to avoid further bloodshed. I will admit however that me calling Rhaenys‘ massacre of Non combattants (which according to our standards should have been protected from the hostilities) the first act of war, was somewhat debatable. It could just as well be regarded as an act of Terrorism.

In any case the Greens were justified acting as if at war, because the blacks did the same:

Her first act was to declare Ser Otto Hightower and the Dowager Queen Alicent as traitors and rebels. (G.R.R.Martin, Fire and Blood, Dublin 2018 this edition 2020 p. 408) (Highlights mine)

That is as formerly a declaration of war as we ever got. And it did not come from the Greens.

As with regards to what Alicent and Otto thought on the matter:

„Queen Alicent went pale when she heard what he had done crying „mother protect us all.“ Nor was Ser Otto pleased „You only lost one eye,“ he is reported to have said „how could you be so blind?““ (G.R.R.Martin, Fire and Blood, Dublin 2018 this edition 2020 p. 422) the word warcrime does not appear on the page once what does appear however is the term kinslayer, and that seems to be what Alicent is so horrified about, as no crime is so accursed in the eyes of both gods and men. Otto meanwhile seems to be of the Fouché-mindset „This is worse than a crime, it is a mistake.“ (Yes, I know the quote is sometimes attributed to Talleyrand or others)

And later we have this line from Alicent with regards to Lucerys‘ death:

„Bastard blood, shed at war“ (G.R.R.Martin, Fire and Blood, Dublin 2018 this edition 2020 p.483) (Highlights mine)

So in what capacity was he there then? Into which category does he fit? Was he trying to surrender? Was he trying to arrange an exchange of prisoners? and how was Aemond supposed to know that from what was spoken?

Calling an envoy, a soldier and a threat, is quite literally the dumbest thing you can say. They are basically postmen with diplomatic immunity. It really sums up the extent of intelligence I have come to expect from team green fans. Lucerys was innocent and he will keep being it, murdering him was a war crime + king slaying being a taboo.

You can take your stupid posts somewhere else. Him saying "I will not fight you" isn't a joke, he is representative of borros's enemy and his only Job is to take a letter and bring back an answer, if he joins in fighting he starts a war.....like aemond did.