Wislawa1 - Wislawa

A real cool guy :)

Also a real cool reminder that I have an instagram~ 

meet the mind of illusion.

[song: infiltrator — christoffer moe ditlevsen]

the dreamverse AU continues! this time, they’re in a bit of a pinch

All my homies want to wrap c!Dream up in a blanket 

Ok there are a lot of things I don't understand about Wilbur and Dream's interactions, but one of the main things that I don't quite get is the whole breaking into the prison and burning the disks with Tommy , like ok why was Wilbur so convinced that by threatening to kill himself he was gonna make Dream do what ever he wants ( burn the disks)

And well we can say that Dream was just agreeing to whatever the hell the wanted because he wanted them out of his living room ( and because he didn't need the disks) but like ,Wilbur didn't know that, what made him so sure that Dream wanted him alive especially after the prison break ( Dream didn't need his help anymore) to the point that he thought he could use it ( his life ) as leverage

Did Dream want to keep Wilbur alive, if so, then why? I don't know man, seems like the only person that would be losing in this situation is Wilbur himself.

I got more questions but like this is what confuses me the most. Idk just don't get it

Honestly I'm going to assume you know about these reddit posts, but while like I think that people should be able to draw their own conclusions to a text without strictly subscribing to what is said by the authors, like, cc!Dream and cc!Wilbur did give explanations behind what happened in this stream that I think are worth checking out: x x

A lot of people perceived cc!Wilbur's comment specifically as speaking for c!Dream in a way that was uninformed and therefore dismissed the post, which I think is...unwise? Like, cc!Wilbur literally says that he's posting from the perspective of his character's thought process, not an out of character word of god on what c!Dream actually values and believes. Further, he literally clarifies that his character isn't entirely correct and is an unreliable narrator.

But looking between the posts and looking at c!Dream's behavior, I mean. What we can say, rather definitively, that c!Wilbur was right about is that c!Dream didn't want to lose that feeling that he had leverage over c!Wilbur. Like, he's pretty damn desperate not to lose it, actually. c!Wilbur "believes that Dream has nothing if not himself"--a perspective that obviously leaves out c!Punz, considering c!Dream's secrecy in terms of this one particular ally, but is otherwise I mean. Like. Correct? cc!Dream emphasizes repeatedly that c!Dream doesn't want to lose "that feeling of control over Wilbur," that c!Dream's power over c!Wilbur is "just in his head," that he's holding onto it even though "it's seemingly gone after the exile reveal." The rest of the server's story only throws this in sharper relief--c!Wilbur literally fucking leaves the whole damn server and c!Dream is cowering in the prison worrying about him A MONTH LATER.

When c!Wilbur makes the assessment that c!Dream is going to hold onto the perceived leverage he has over c!Wilbur tightly, EVEN WHEN SAID LEVERAGE DOESN'T EXIST, to the point of doing almost everything c!Wilbur tells him to? He's 100% right. c!Dream doesn't want to break the illusion. When cc!Dream gives the two examples of what c!Dream wouldn't do, he mentions that c!Dream wouldn't "kill himself" or "give over the revive book," which, I mean. Is literally just saying the same thing twice. Which, again, just goes to show how far c!Dream is willing to go in order to keep holding onto a feeling of control, that--once again! Is emphasized by both ccs AND by the literal text (as we can see that c!Dream at no point is able to actually use the "leverage" he has over c!Wilbur from reviving him to do LITERALLY ANYTHING AT ALL) as not existing in any meaningful manner. This isn't a case of c!Wilbur having an inflated sense of self-importance or a case of him pushing his way into this conflict recklessly w/ a delusional belief that his pitch will work. This is a case of c!Wilbur (as is like, usually the case with him and c!Dream) reading c!Dream like an open book and getting exactly what he fucking wants by force, literally shouting down at c!Tommy and c!Dream until they both comply.

(And it's worth pointing out that like. This whole thing does have a visible toll on c!Dream. He's extra jumpy and defensive in the stream on the same day after Inconsolable Differences, says he went for a stroll outside the prison (something he basically Doesn't Do after he gets the prison back in Daedalus) explicitly to "keep his mind wandering," he bristles at the perception that he's being accused of a terrorist--the exact wording that c!Wilbur uses against him when he makes him write the book in the prison. c!Dream's behavior, while not yet pushed to the point where he starts lashing out in self-defense, was pretty obviously off as soon as c!Wilbur started making demands--he grows quieter, more still, visibly less comfortable--honestly, not at all unsimilar to certain behaviors that we saw in the prison arc.)

And I mean. At the end of the day. Why wouldn't c!Dream want some reason to believe that c!Wilbur would work with him? Why wouldn't he want some kind of leverage? The guy is pretty obviously worried about him, if not outright scared of him. He was ranking c!Wilbur with the likes of c!Sam and c!Quackity when he mentions him in the Finale, for god's sake. c!Wilbur was the person that first called him the tyrant that c!Dream ends up believing he has always been. c!Wilbur was the originator of L'manburg, which c!Dream blames for the literal loss of his home. c!Wilbur is like. Extremely charismatic, extremely good at convincing people that he's well-meaning, that what he's saying is right, that this-person-is-the-enemy and you-want-to-stand-for-freedom and that so-and-so is a cause worth dying for, isn't it. c!Dream was The-Man-That-L'manburg-Opposed from the minute that c!Wilbur decided so and this narrative would follow him literally for the rest of his life.

So yeah c!Dream wanted to keep c!Wilbur alive out of the delusional belief that doing so would mean he has leverage over him. Why he wants that leverage (even though he never uses it and the fact that it literally doesn't exist), I mean.

Feeling safe

(This is gonna be a long analysis)

I love angbang soooooo much. So much that I looked into all the religious subtext that their relationship is full of. Someone help me...................I mean it’s hard to separate the cannon from it’s religious connotations.........I needed to know all I could about angbang so here goes:

Okay I think Sauron and Melkor’s relationship was supposed to be an illustration of Idolatry.

The way Tolkien talks about their relationship seems to back this up.

On one hand he says: “but there was seen an effect of Melkor on Sauron: he spoke of Melkor in Melkor’s own terms: as a god, or even as god. This may have been a residue of a state which was in a sense a shadow of good: the ability once in Sauron to at least admire or admit the superiority of a being other than himself.”

And:

“While Morgoth still stood, Sauron did not seek his own supremacy, but worked and schemed for another, desiring the triumph of Melkor, whom in the begining he had adored.”

Now to put plainly it seems Sauron worshipped Melkor. He thought of him as god, and at least in the beginning adored him. He did not desire his own triumph, but the triumph of Melkor. He worked and schemed for him, for someone he admired and adored, for someone he seemed to revere.

It should be noted that the word “adore” is used to describe the way the valar and elves feel towards Eru. This makes it seem that Marion worships Melkor in the way the valar/elves worship Eru. That this feeling is good and “holy”

(I believe the word admire is also used in the same way)

But of course we are talking about dark lords, and Tolkien has admitted his stories are religious works. Naturally Sauron’s feelings for Melkor cannot from a religious lens be viewed as on the same level with worship and admiration of Eru.

This is displayed when Tolkien expresses only Eru can give TRUE love and independence. He also states that no sub-creator can give love in that same way, and that it is a wish for loving obedience. Then it is stated that can only turn into robotic servitude, which is inherently evil.

Now this is most likely a jab at Sauron, but it is NOT invalidating the strength of his original worship and devotion. It seems to be implying that as Tolkien said: “This may have been a residue of a state which was in a sense a shadow of good: the ability once in Sauron to at least admire or admit the superiority of a being other than himself.”

And that: “(he worked)desiring the triumph of Melkor, whom in the begining he had adored.”

(Again the words adored and admired again. Those in themselves were considered holy and devout feelings, things pure and selfless. Given to an idol they in the eyes of Eru become corrupt.)

Now it seems Mairon’s admiration and worship of Melkor was in essence the same in feeling as those who worshiped Eru, (they both feel admiration and reverence) but is inherently unholy and sinful. Something to be abhorred in its denial of god.

Or it could be that Sauron’s clear admiration for Melkor was a shadow of the gift Eru had given him, one that turned into sin as time went on. It was a shadow goodness and selflessness, but became corrupt.

Either way there are clear parallels between Sauron’s worship of Morgoth and Idolatry. Apparently just because you worship someone it doesn’t mean it’s holy. Sauron gave himself up, became imbued with evil and corruption, but his worship towards Melkor ran deep and kept him loyal for a long time. He denied Eru, but as Tolkien said in his words: “(Sauron)wasn’t a true atheist” as he instead looked to Melkor. But in worshipping Melkor he denied Eru.

Now Tolkien does seem to imply Sauron’s original feelings for Melkor were valid and pure, that is until they turned into denial of the true god and his love. Then of course Sauron’s feelings must have diminished into a shell of all true and holy love. Something with only semblance of such a “holy” thing as love for god.

SIGH.....Tolkien how come I had to raised by theologians to understand this reference. I never liked theology but of course my parents taught me to read Middle-English.

So what we can garner from this is it seems Sauron’s original love/devotion to Melkor was true and valid, but then became corrupted and twisted when it turned into denial of Eru. It became a shell of true love, something that caused him to remain in loyal and constant service to Morgoth through the millennia.

OR we can just focus on how it was all written from an unreliable narrator and thus we can do what we want!

Plus why does Sauron’s love of Melkor have to be inherently unholy! Why is love in itself not a pure and selfless action?

Tolkien made clear Sauron schemed for Melkor, desired the triumph of Melkor during all the time he served him. Even if his love was only holy in the beginning he still remained constantly selflessly devoted to Melkor, even when it contradicted his own goal. It would have been obvious to Sauron Melkor wished to destroy, while Sauron himself wished to innovate and control. You cannot innovate out of nothingness. But he still worked for Melkor, desired Melkor’s success and was implementing Melkor’s plans. What about that besides who it’s given to in unholy in any way?

Now there is the argument that a big part of his service to Morgoth was based of if his desire for power. Now as much as it might seem that was true from how he is described being drawn to Melkor’s strength, the fact that Tolkien said he did not seek his own supremacy, but desired the success of Melkor, and worked and schemed FOR someone other than himself, I do not think it could ever be reduced to simply that.

He seemed close to selfless in his actions as he was scheming and giving himself up for someone else.

I disagree with Tolkien. I believe reverence in itself is good and true. I believe to adore, to be selfless is good and true, though of course it is no excuse for committing evil. I just mean to me Sauron retained something good, even amidst the cocoon of his evil. So I guess I choose to interpret this in a different way, I choose to see his devotion not as inherent sin but as a fragment of good within him, which is almost what Tolkien meant honestly

But like it’s still love. He is working and scheming and striving for the success of someone other than himself. Tolkien said he desired Melkor’s success, and that his feelings for Melkor were the shadow of good. He is selfless in the fact he is truly desiring the goal of someone else above himself, and he is acting on it.

angy

Okay, question for people smarter than me: What would c!Dream and c!Wilbur's interaction have been like in and after the scrapped lore? I'm wondering if it was maybe intended to be an earlier version of the c!Dream-c!Purpled alliance, but that would obviously play out very differently with c!Wilbur. Food for thought.

i feel like ,,, like we talk a lot about how fear-motivated c!dream's actions are, yeah, because you know c!dream is consistently paranoid as fuck and So Much of why he's like that is because he's too scared to think straight and doing batshit insane shit as a result, but at the same time i think that his ... awareness? of this? can be vastly overestimated. c!dream doesn't like being afraid. c!dream is historically Really Fucking Bad at admitting or acknowledging when he's actually terrified of a situation, because that means he's lost control of it. if he's Worried about a situation he's still ahead of it, if he's Cautious or making preparations or getting things in line to make sure that those closest to him don't get in the line of fire he's still retained a degree of control, but all of that isn't quite the same as admitting he's doing anything because he's scared out of his mind, because scared out of his mind isn't exactly a state that c!dream likes to be in.

and this is why c!dream is so adamant on transactional relationships with anyone that he perceives as having a modicum of real power, because being useful to powerful people makes him less of a target because they need something from him. this is why he is so desperate to convince himself that he's on top when it comes to sam, when it comes to quackity, when it comes to wilbur, and he's saying all of this hidden inside his own hell after hiding there for months having barely confronted c!quackity before getting the hell out of dodge. this is why he scrambles to make sure to show that he's not indebted to technoblade and why he puts himself in foolish's service within minutes of meeting him and why a fucking feeling of power against an unarmed man he could've locked in a box with him with a press of a button was enough to get him to shut up and obey no matter how damn unsubstantiated that feeling ended up being because he couldn't bear to lose it, even just within his own head

and so you know, when c!dream calls c!tommy the one thing out of his control as a motivation for exile during the same time he had to fight off multiple coups explicitly with the desire to do away with him so that theyd be able to "rule the server," like. look. c!dream is just so fucking far from a reliable narrator. i'm sure he could give me an itemized list of how c!tommy has ruined his life, i'm sure he can say all these things about how c!tommy causes chaos and causes problems and doesn't listen to anyone, i'm sure he can go on and on and on about how it'd be a different story if c!tommy just listened to him for once. but let's be real, here--as much as he's convinced himself that he's trying to get control of the one thing out of his control, what's closer to reality is that c!tommy was the one thing he did feel like he could control (hello, the discs) when literally everything else wasn't