june-sunsets
Greek/Ελληνίδα
86 posts
Latest Posts by june-sunsets
'I’ll be the first person to call out when a person from an imperialist country is disrespectful against another culture’s traditions because this affects my everyday life.'
I see, thank you for sharing that. I repeat, however, I did not accuse you of xenophobia.
OP's post was harmless, including the tags. They were joking, they said so themselves. You're making a bigger deal out of this than it needs to be.
There was an interview where Miller specifically said "I wanted to push back against Homer". That's probably what I remembered, and same logic applies. How can she compare her books to ancient writings?
As for which characters she simplified, well, I've already mentioned Patroclus. The women in 'The song of Achilles' are depicted negatively because they get in the way of Patrochilles. In general Miller sees the Gods as modern sociopaths and describes them as such. Why did Helios need to be a bad father, for example? Simply for protagonist Circe's backstory? In Circe, it often feels like all the male characters have to be abusive purely for Miller's 'feminist' narrative.
You keep forgetting what I wrote:
This isn't about all retellings being inherently bad.
Let me put it this way; I enjoy fanfiction. Fanfiction is essentially a form of retelling. But here's the thing; even in fanfiction, where you put the pre-existing characters in a story that diverges from canon, or even in an AU, the characters are still 'in character'. If their personalities are different, then what's the point? You might as well be reading about completely different characters.
'The idea that reimaginings are “bad writing” is restrictive of the medium and dismissive of plenty of great works'
I was refering to the characters' personalities. Not the entire idea of a retelling. So again, I'm not anti-art, and again, I feel you're twisting my words.
You said in your previous response 'I don’t care for misinformed reviews'. Well, I don't care for people who repeatedly distort my opinions. And I especially do not need to justify myself to them, since they will twist anything I say.
So Madeline Miller is writing a Persephone retelling. So let's make our bets about the book.
The winners will win this picture of a brick.
So let's make a bet.
A.) She will potray Demeter as an abusive mother, whaile the kidnapping will be ereased, and Hades will be baby boyfied.
B.) Hades will be potrayd as eveil incarnate, and Demeter will be potrayd as a poor poor blorbo (similar to how she potrayd Circe)
C.) Both will be potrayd as the worst. Demeter, and Hades will be potrayd as abusive, and Persephone will be potrayd as a poor poor girl who always has to suffer.
My bet is that it will be C.).
Your response reeks of 'I will twist every sentence into something else'. First of all;
'How nice of you to accuse me of xenophobia because I believe that a book that hasn’t even been published shouldn’t be ridiculized. Very rational.'
I did not accuse you of xenophobia. Where on earth did I accuse you of xenophobia? You read 'you're going into these retellings without fully grasping the purpose and cultural value of Greek mythology' and what you got from it was 'xenophobia'? Are you kidding me? What I wrote is literally what it says on the tin (which is not xenophobia). And OP did not ridiculize anything; they made a humorous speculation on a future book and you couldn't handle it. Very mature.
'If you believe that the concept of ancient greek mythology retellings as a whole is disrespectful, that’s your opinion and you’re entitled to it. I just find it completely unnecessary to insult this woman’s intelligence and speak of her as if she’s an idiot to be led by the nose.'
In the conclusion of my 'rambling' I state that this isn't about all retellings being inherently bad:
I believe a good retelling can be done. It's possible. Unfortunately, they are extremely hard to find (or, apparently, extremely hard to write). Most myth retelling writers do the same mistake Miller does; looking at ancient myths through a modern lense, and judging them based on that. Then they claim they can 'fix' them (which is another level of insulting) and they end up distorting those myths to the point where they are completely different stories, unrelated to the original source.
Also no one insulted Miller's intelligence? No one called her an idiot. In fact, she might know exactly what she's doing. I just don't agree with it, I think it's wrong and she's being disrespectful to the mythology and the culture it originated from.
(There is a general misconception of Greek culture in general when it comes to Western academic circles. It's frustrating.)
'And how is that her fault? Anybody who buys a retelling and becomes convinced that they are reading the true and original version of the story is an idiot. Madeline Miller’s books are advertised towards adults.'
That's true, anybody who buys a retelling thinks they are reading the true of the story is an idiot. But there's a problem in Miller's attitude towards mythology as well. How is it also not her fault, when she says things like 'the ending of the novel is a huge pushback against mythology' in her interviews? Really, Miller? Are you comparing yourself to Homer? Are you saying your retelling is on a par with this thousands-of-years-old epic? Be for real.
Ultimately, the fact that she's a Classicist means little to me when she characterizes mythological figures -mortals and gods- in a way that reduces them to caricatures; she simplifies them so they can fit the boxes of modern character tropes.
That's when retellings become direspectful. And that's an instance where changing an existing character's personality is bad writing. Especially when this character was originally pretty complex and means something to the people of this culture.
As a Greek person, I have the right to call her out on that.
I didn't accuse you of xenophobia, but I'm pretty sure you accused me of being anti-art. So no, I'm not anti-art. I'm just Greek and irritated with Miller's BS. People are allowed to express criticism on art. All art, including Miller's.
So Madeline Miller is writing a Persephone retelling. So let's make our bets about the book.
The winners will win this picture of a brick.
So let's make a bet.
A.) She will potray Demeter as an abusive mother, whaile the kidnapping will be ereased, and Hades will be baby boyfied.
B.) Hades will be potrayd as eveil incarnate, and Demeter will be potrayd as a poor poor blorbo (similar to how she potrayd Circe)
C.) Both will be potrayd as the worst. Demeter, and Hades will be potrayd as abusive, and Persephone will be potrayd as a poor poor girl who always has to suffer.
My bet is that it will be C.).
^^^^^^^ All of this.
There's a difference between 'telling your own version' of a myth, and telling a completely different story. If you need to change a pre-existing character so much that they feel like a new character, then it's simply bad writing.
Miller is especially self-righteous about her retellings in interviews. Are her retellings 'other versions' of the myths? If by 'other versions' you mean distorting the mythology and missing its point, or utilizing foreign mythology as an aesthetic to draw people in, then yeah, I guess.
Readers who are ignorant of the myths or have no respect for the culture those myths belong to, will then take Miller's distorted stories as fact, and assume that hers is the correct way of telling them. And, evidently, Miller's fans will not tolerate anyone criticizing her.
Well I promise you that her books give the opposite impression.
In fact, her characterization of Patroclus alone is enough for me to doubt her both as an academic and as a researcher.
(Not to mention her tendency to invent unnecessary details, things that don't happen in the myths, like Circe getting assaulted, which was specifically added to 'justify' Circe's behaviour in the Odyssey. A+ writing, how very progressive)
A classicist like Miller should know that when you apply modern standards to an ancient myth, essentially removing it from the era in which it was written, and ignoring the reasons the myth was created, then you're missing half of the context.
Either she
has severely misunderstood the characters in the Homeric epics and Greek mythology in general (which doesn't say much about her as a classicist), or
she does understand the characters in the myths, but she cares more about what kind of story will 'sell'. She's thinking, "Let's see, if I frame Homer as problematic, and promote my books as the solution to the 'Homer problem', then of course people will prefer my stories."
If it's the latter, it's not a surprise, and she's not the first person to do it, and unfortunately she won't be the last.
@rightwheretheyleftme I think you're going into these retellings without fully grasping the purpose and cultural value of Greek mythology. I think you're glorifying these retellings regardless of how off the mark they are when it comes to characterization.
@lez-exclude-men If you're enjoying Miller's books that much, then I hate to break it to you, but you are the one who needs to get 'elbows deep' in research. But if you have no desire to do all that work, maybe you shut up and let people express their opinions? Miller's work is flawed, and we are allowed to point it out.
This isn't about Miller being a woman, and it isn't about all retellings being inherently bad. This is about Miller not respecting and not understanding the mythology she's so eager to 'fix'.
So Madeline Miller is writing a Persephone retelling. So let's make our bets about the book.
The winners will win this picture of a brick.
So let's make a bet.
A.) She will potray Demeter as an abusive mother, whaile the kidnapping will be ereased, and Hades will be baby boyfied.
B.) Hades will be potrayd as eveil incarnate, and Demeter will be potrayd as a poor poor blorbo (similar to how she potrayd Circe)
C.) Both will be potrayd as the worst. Demeter, and Hades will be potrayd as abusive, and Persephone will be potrayd as a poor poor girl who always has to suffer.
My bet is that it will be C.).
Listen, they removed "I'm Wishing/One Song" and the "One Song" reprise.
It was bound to flop, they had it coming.
In Greece, the 25th of March is a day of great religious and national importance. Along with the celebration of the Annunciation of the Virgin Mary, it is the Greek Independence Day, when is celebrated and commemorated the symbolic declaration in the monastery of Agia Lavra (Achaia,Peloponnesus) of the revolution against the Ottoman Turks, occupants of Greece. Thus began the Greek War of Independence (1821-1830),which would lead to the gradual liberation of Greece and the creation of the modern Greek state.
The countless heroic and tragic episodes of this long and bloody war,and many of its extraordinary protagonists, have inspired through time many artists,both European and Greek, to create portraits, sprawling battle scenes and introspective historical works.
These are some of them.
Click on the works to see the title and artist.
This is a series,and this is part 2.
In Greece, the 25th of March is a day of great religious and national importance. Along with the celebration of the Annunciation of the Virgin Mary, it is the Greek Independence Day, when is celebrated and commemorated the symbolic declaration in the monastery of Agia Lavra (Achaia,Peloponnesus) of the revolution against the Ottoman Turks, occupants of Greece. Thus began the Greek War of Independence (1821-1830),which would lead to the gradual liberation of Greece and the creation of the modern Greek state.
The countless heroic and tragic episodes of this long and bloody war,and many of its extraordinary protagonists, have inspired through time many artists,both European and Greek, to create portraits, sprawling battle scenes and introspective historical works.
These are some of them.
Click on the works to see the title and artist.
This will be a series,and this is part 1.
The Greek word used for this myth, the verb 'ἁρπάζω' also means to abduct, to snatch away, and it doesn't have a sexual connotation. Hades literally just steals Persephone. Meanwhile when, for example, Pausanias talks about Halirrhothios deflowering Alkippe, Ares' daughter, he specifically uses the word 'αἰσχύναντα' which means he dishonored her, disgraced her. So what I mean is, there is a difference between cases of rape as in assault, and the case of the 'rape' of Persephone, as in her abduction.
ngl i do enjoy the hades x Persophone idea, but i wish it reflected mythology more like Dread queen persophone is a damn kidnapping freak too.
The thing with Hades and Persephone is that these two are far from the perfectest, most pure, most ideal couple to ever exist. The beginning alone is disturbing, with Hades kidnapping, raping and then either tricking or straight-up forcing Persephone into remaining into the Underworld by giving her those pomegranate seeds. He also cheated on her with Minthe, so fidelity is not a strong point either.
What frustrates me though is that a lot people completely erase these aspects and try to create a version of the myth completely different from the ancient ones where the only similarities end up being the figures' names. I understand erasing the rape part, because even though back then marital rape wasn't considered a crime (and there are still parts of the world where it still isn't, unfortunately), the idea of having a woman starting to be fond or to love her rapist just because he treats her nicely is on itself deranging. But erasing the kidnapping or the infidelity only removes the complexity and the grey nuances of their relationship. Why, instead of claiming that Persephone willingly went with Hades or that Hades is the only faithful god, people would focus on the fact that she had just as much power and authority over the Underworld as him? Why, instead of demonizing Demeter, people would try to understand that having your daughter kidnapped and forcibly married off to someone is a disturbing scenario, and that her actions were completely justified?
On the "dread queen Persephone" part, I have to recognize that I despise the way people either portray Persephone as this innocent, naïve and oblivious flower girl, or as a cruel, merciless and completely terrifying queen.
Yes, she groomed Adonis (Pseudo-Apollodorus), brutally tortured Minthe before turning her into a plant (Starbo), inflicted Thebes woth a deadly plague (Antonius Liberalis) etc. etc. But she also realeased Sisyphus from the Underworld (Theognis), gave Orpheus a chance to rescue his wife (Diodorus Siculus), sent Alcestis back (Pseudo-Apollodorus), welcomed Heracles like a brother, allowed him to take Cerberus and to rescue Theseus and Pirithous (Diodorus Siculus) etc. etc. She had her own moments of cruelty, but compared to Aphrodite who made children lust over their parents or Dionysus who cursed mother to kill and devour their babies she is not as blood-thirsty and merciless as people like to give her credits for. What is ironic though is that people are perfectly capable to acknowledge that just because Hades ruled over the dead and ancient greeks were afraid to pronounce his name that doesn’t mean that he was evil, but somehow Persephone must be completely dreadful in order to be intersting.
Reducing either one of them two or their relationship to an aesthetic isn't just reductive, but also shallow, repetitive, uninteresting, uncreative and overall boring.
I would like to note though, that when we talk about the 'Rape of Persephone', 'rape' doesn't refer to literal SA. Nowhere is it mentioned that Hades rapes Persephone.
In this case the word 'rape' just means 'abduction', 'kidnapping'. It's from the latin raptus which means to carry off, to kidnap.
ngl i do enjoy the hades x Persophone idea, but i wish it reflected mythology more like Dread queen persophone is a damn kidnapping freak too.
The thing with Hades and Persephone is that these two are far from the perfectest, most pure, most ideal couple to ever exist. The beginning alone is disturbing, with Hades kidnapping, raping and then either tricking or straight-up forcing Persephone into remaining into the Underworld by giving her those pomegranate seeds. He also cheated on her with Minthe, so fidelity is not a strong point either.
What frustrates me though is that a lot people completely erase these aspects and try to create a version of the myth completely different from the ancient ones where the only similarities end up being the figures' names. I understand erasing the rape part, because even though back then marital rape wasn't considered a crime (and there are still parts of the world where it still isn't, unfortunately), the idea of having a woman starting to be fond or to love her rapist just because he treats her nicely is on itself deranging. But erasing the kidnapping or the infidelity only removes the complexity and the grey nuances of their relationship. Why, instead of claiming that Persephone willingly went with Hades or that Hades is the only faithful god, people would focus on the fact that she had just as much power and authority over the Underworld as him? Why, instead of demonizing Demeter, people would try to understand that having your daughter kidnapped and forcibly married off to someone is a disturbing scenario, and that her actions were completely justified?
On the "dread queen Persephone" part, I have to recognize that I despise the way people either portray Persephone as this innocent, naïve and oblivious flower girl, or as a cruel, merciless and completely terrifying queen.
Yes, she groomed Adonis (Pseudo-Apollodorus), brutally tortured Minthe before turning her into a plant (Starbo), inflicted Thebes woth a deadly plague (Antonius Liberalis) etc. etc. But she also realeased Sisyphus from the Underworld (Theognis), gave Orpheus a chance to rescue his wife (Diodorus Siculus), sent Alcestis back (Pseudo-Apollodorus), welcomed Heracles like a brother, allowed him to take Cerberus and to rescue Theseus and Pirithous (Diodorus Siculus) etc. etc. She had her own moments of cruelty, but compared to Aphrodite who made children lust over their parents or Dionysus who cursed mother to kill and devour their babies she is not as blood-thirsty and merciless as people like to give her credits for. What is ironic though is that people are perfectly capable to acknowledge that just because Hades ruled over the dead and ancient greeks were afraid to pronounce his name that doesn’t mean that he was evil, but somehow Persephone must be completely dreadful in order to be intersting.
Reducing either one of them two or their relationship to an aesthetic isn't just reductive, but also shallow, repetitive, uninteresting, uncreative and overall boring.
(Η Αριάδνη γνωρίζει τον Διόνυσο στη Νάξο)
Διόνυσος: Διόνυσος. Για σένα, Νιόνιος
Αριάδνη: ?????
Every time i see dionysus misspelled as dionysis my spirit gets transported to a different reality where some random greek guy has become a widely known blorbo. Dionysis from my polykatoitikia.
Oh no she actually mentioned using Ovid, Shakespeare's Ulysses, and other sources in an interview.
Oh neat..
However Ovid does not depict Circe being assaulted in his work thankfully. Her stories center around her unrequited love, jealousy, and the consequences of her powerful magic. The focus is on her role as a sorceress who transforms others, not as a victim.
That's a main difference that Miller has been making in her works is the useless plot device of using women's suffering and trauma for shock value.
Like miller you are ruining the source material and the image of those old poets.
Get in loser, we're going to the park
I'm thinking of doing a babes week this spring/summer
Everyone is welcome to participate!
The prompts we've got this far are
- Mirror
- Cemetery
- Favorite holiday
- Rock
- Beach
Suggestions are appreciated 🌞
No for real, at this point I'm more willing to believe that she somehow got her bachelor's and master's in Classics without having read the Odyssey and the Iliad, than her having read the Odyssey and the Iliad once in her life
Or maybe she read it once at five years old and thought it was enough
Oh no she actually mentioned using Ovid, Shakespeare's Ulysses, and other sources in an interview.
Oh neat..
However Ovid does not depict Circe being assaulted in his work thankfully. Her stories center around her unrequited love, jealousy, and the consequences of her powerful magic. The focus is on her role as a sorceress who transforms others, not as a victim.
That's a main difference that Miller has been making in her works is the useless plot device of using women's suffering and trauma for shock value.
Like miller you are ruining the source material and the image of those old poets.
So she used Ovid but not really, just like she used Homer but not really Book Review for Circe | Thought Candy
What Odyssey did this person read
Because I highly suspect that Miller did not read the Odyssey aasdfgfdsdfghgfd
Oh no she actually mentioned using Ovid, Shakespeare's Ulysses, and other sources in an interview.
Oh neat..
However Ovid does not depict Circe being assaulted in his work thankfully. Her stories center around her unrequited love, jealousy, and the consequences of her powerful magic. The focus is on her role as a sorceress who transforms others, not as a victim.
That's a main difference that Miller has been making in her works is the useless plot device of using women's suffering and trauma for shock value.
Like miller you are ruining the source material and the image of those old poets.
March 12: Tom Holland and Christoper Nolan prepare to film 'THE ODYSSEY' at the Greek sea.
March 12: Extras are seen on the set of Christopher Nolan's 'THE ODYSSEY' in Greece.
Did you even read what I wrote? Here are some screenshots straight from the Riordan wiki and the books:
'the books aren’t fucking saying the locations moved' I don't know how to break it to you but IT IS LITERALLY what the books ARE saying.
did you even read them?
In Greek mythology and tradition, places like the Labyrinth, the seat of the Gods, the seat of the Titans, the entrances to the Underworld exist in real geographical locations. We ARE talking about locations, and it's asinine for an author to think that he can just 'move' these places to the US (or anywhere in the world really) and call it a day. Let's take Mountain Olympus for example. The home of the Gods is on Olympus in Greece. The geographical placement of the Gods' home holds cultural significance that Riordan completely ignored. I'd say he ignored it deliberately. Olympus is the home of the Gods AND the mountain. It makes NO SENSE to move the home of the Gods to the Empire State Building. It makes NO SENSE to move the Labyrinth from Crete to "under some building in America".
And there is no reason for the Greek Gods and heroes to leave Greece behind other than the fact that Riordan did not care for the country whose mythology he is exploiting to sell his books.
This passage below is supposed to be from Percy's point of view but it is also Riordan's POV while he was writing his books:
'I was feeling pretty proud of myself' I bet you were, Rick. Imperialist minds usually do.
no, Rick, it's not
Like what do you mean Mount Olympus is the Empire State Building?? Last time I ckecked, Mount Olympus is a MOUNTAIN and it's in GREECE. 'Many of the locations of Greek mythology have also moved with Mount Olympus and can be found all over America'????? These are locations, not furniture!
Greece is a country that still exists, by the way, so why exactly would the Greek Gods (Greek, Rick, Greek) abandon it? Why would they leave their homeland?? Every time I remember that passage where Chiron is like "haha, Percy, western civilization is a liViNg fORce and it started in Greece" and "ohh it's a fire and the Gods follow wherever the flame is brightest uwu" I just- it's so stupid, it makes me want to pull my hair out. How on Earth did Riordan think that was okay to write? Did he really think it was valid justification for basically disconnecting the Greek gods and Greek culture from Greece and Greek people?
You know what this 'justification' reminds me of? This. They're both part of the same narrative.
Not even the camp- the goddamn camp for children whose parents are Greek Gods- is set in Greece. Riordan just made a US-flavored cake and sprinkled some Greek Mythology on top. Delicious.
Stop Treating Greek Mythology Like Just Another Fictional Franchise
I am honestly tired of seeing people lump Greek mythology into the same category as DC Comics, anime, or any other modern fictional universe. There’s this frustrating trend where people discuss figures like Odysseus or Achilles in the same breath as Batman or Goku, as if they’re just characters in a long-running franchise rather than deeply rooted cultural and literary icons from one of the most influential civilizations in history.
Yes, myths contain fantastical elements—gods turning into animals, heroes slaying monsters, mortals being punished or rewarded in ways that defy logic. But that does not mean Greek mythology is the same as a modern fantasy novel. These myths were part of an entire civilization’s identity. The ancient Greeks didn’t just tell these stories for entertainment; they used them to explain the world, explore human nature, justify traditions, and even shape their religious practices. The Odyssey isn’t just an adventurous tale about a guy struggling to get home—it’s a reflection of Greek values, an exploration of heroism, fate, and the gods' role in human life. When people treat it as nothing more than “fiction,” they erase the cultural weight it carried for the people who created it.
Greek mythology functioned in antiquity—these were their sacred stories, their way of making sense of the universe. And yet, people will still argue that the Odyssey is no different from a DC Elseworlds story, as if it was just an early attempt at serialized storytelling rather than a cornerstone of Western literature.
Part of the problem comes from how myths have been adapted in modern media. Hollywood and pop culture have turned Greek mythology into a shallow aesthetic, cherry-picking elements for the sake of spectacle while stripping away any historical or cultural depth. Movies like Clash of the Titans or games like God of War reimagine the myths in ways that make them feel like superhero stories—cool battles, flashy gods, exaggerated personalities. And while those adaptations can be fun, they’ve also contributed to this weird idea that Greek myths are just another IP (intellectual property) that anyone can rewrite however they want, without considering their original context.
This becomes especially frustrating when people defend radical reinterpretations of Greek mythology under the “it’s just fiction” excuse. No, Greek mythology is not just fiction! It’s cultural heritage. It’s part of history. It’s literature. It’s philosophy. If someone drastically rewrote a Shakespearean play and justified it by saying, “Well, it’s just an old story,” people would push back. If someone did the same to the Mahabharata or The Tale of Genji , there would be outrage. But when it happens to Greek myths? Suddenly, it’s “just fiction,” and any criticism is dismissed as overreacting.
I am not saying mythology should be untouchable. Reinterpretation and adaptation have always been a part of how these stories survive—Euripides retold myths differently from Homer, and Ovid gave his own spin on Greek legends in his Metamorphoses. The difference is that those ancient reinterpretations still respected the source material as cultural history, rather than treating it as some creative sandbox where anything goes. When people defend blatant inaccuracies in modern adaptations by saying, “It’s just a story, why does it matter?” they are ignoring the fact that these myths are a major link to an ancient civilization that shaped so much of what we call Western culture today.
Ultimately, Greek mythology deserves the same level of respect as any major historical and literary tradition. It’s not a superhero franchise. It’s not a random fantasy series. It’s the legacy of a civilization that continues to influence philosophy, literature, art, and even modern storytelling itself. So let’s stop treating it like disposable entertainment and start appreciating it for the depth, complexity, and significance it truly holds.
The more news we get on Christopher Nolan's The Odyssey the more I'm convinced this dude thinks we're still in the 1990s 🤦♀️🤦♀️🤦♀️
What the hell is this???
(picture credits @margaretkart)
For comparison this is what the real Ithaca looks like:
Hold on a sec
"all in all the Hellenic Republic as we know it today is a very recent concept in the large scheme of theings"
I hope you're talking about the Hellenic Republic as in the nation-state (and even then, it's not that recent), and not the people.
Because Greeks, as in, the people, didn't appear 200 years ago, nor did we conjure up an ethnic identity the moment we became a nation-state (200 years ago). We've held and preserved our ethnic identity for thousands of years. We've been Greeks for thousands of years.
"And is not a race because people of different backgrounds can have the Greek citizenship"
First of all, let's not confuse 'nationality' with 'ethnicity'. What you're talking about here is Nationality Law, which is a thing in a lot of countries, not exclusively in Greece.
Let's say I, a Greek person, became a Nigerian citizen through naturalisation. And someone decided to make a movie/show about the Yoruba deities. By your logic, some of the gods in this movie/show could very well look like me, a Greek person, or a Swedish person who is a Nigerian citizen, or a Chinese person who is a Nigerian citizen, and so on and so on.
Do you see the problem?
"And it's not the same as whitewashing"
Excuse me, your logic here; this wrong thing (whitewashing) has been happening for a while, therefore we will fight it by also doing the wrong thing (casting/designing other characters inaccurately).
How is that going to help anyone? Two wrongs don't make a right.
You say "there's not a finite amount of representation" but then you essentially say misrepresention is fine as long as it's at the expense of specific groups of people.
Your US-centric concept of race doesn't apply to every other region in the world.
When you force 'fake' diversity unto Greek mythology, not only are you erasing Greeks as an ethnic group, you're also ignoring mythologies from other cultures and of other ethnic groups, in the process.
And I find it tactless of you to police what we look like and what kind of representation befits us, in stories taken straight from our culture.
"But let's humor them for a moment"
I'd advise you not to make assumptions for a country and a people (and a culture) you're clearly not familiar with.
Once again I saw people complaining about making Greek mythology things with people who have dark skin, because they aren't "ethnically Greek". But they actually mean "racially Greek" because Ethnicity is not just skin color, it also refers to a shared culture, customs, traditions etc etc, but I digress
And before annoying people on tumblr start sending me hate messages accusing me of being racist against Greek people (again lol) for saying that is not bad for something Greek mythology related to have a couple of Dark skinned characters out of the majority light skinned characters (coughHadescough) allow me to explain
Now, Greek isn't actually a race, all in all the Hellenic Republic as we know it today is a very recent concept in the large scheme of theings. And is not a race because people of different backgrounds can have the Greek citizenship
But let's humor them for a moment
I went to Google images to search for the average Greek person and these are the results:
Now, we see here the so called "ethnically correct" way to look Greek
Light olive skin, dark hair and brown eyes
The way Greeks look, right?
Well
Surprise assholes, they are all Mexicans JAJAJAJA
And what does that mean? Are Mexicans stealing the Greek look? Are those people in Mexico stealing representation by looking like that? Wait, it's all Mexico? Always has been
No, but seriously. What does that means?
It means that Light olive skin, dark hair and brown eyes... It's a pretty common look everywhere
Yeah, even in South Africa you're going to find people looking like that
Now, mind you, not all Mexicans look like that, there are Indigenous people, Afro Mexicans, wHite Mexicans, Chinese Mexicans, etc etc
And I'm sure there are people in the Hellenic Republic that look different, with lighter skin, with darker skin, you know the drill
But that's the thing, you can't assign just one right way to look to a country, if you start assigning a race to a nationality you're on your way to create an ethnostate (which is bad mind you)
And people who complain about dark people taking away representation from them. Honey; Representation is not something that has a finite amount, if you don't like how some people make Patroclus dark skinned, you can always make your own version or support an artist that makes a representation you like instead of complaining about people who make him "not ethnically correct"
(Mind you, making Patroclus wHite isn't bad and has been done before)
Besides, making something culturally accurate about Greek culture doesn't have anything to do with race, as culture doesn't equal race
Like if somebody made something about Mexico and put Afro Mexicans or Chinese Mexicans in there, it's not taking anything away from me, because there's not a finite amount of representation
And it's not the same as whitewashing, as people complain about whitewashing because there are already A LOT of things with white people in it, and plus, complaining about whitewashing does next to nothing, as it's still happening (like how in the most recent adaptation of wuthering heights they choose a white actor for a character that's implied to be Romani)
BTW, I lied, in the picture above, two people are Greek actually and 2 are mexican (allegedly, I just found the pictures on Google, so who know where they're from really, they could be from anywhere lmao)
YES 👏
if you think the greek gods were tyrants who made mortals suffer then you 👏 don't 👏 get👏 it 👏
"In ancient Greece, mortals suffer under the tyranny of the gods—forced to sacrifice the food they depend on, their worldly possessions and even each other at the whims of the Twelve" STOP 👏 BEING 👏 SO 👏 FUCKING 👏 BORING 👏
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/05/25/books/greeks-myths-adaptions.html
Westerners never cease to amaze me with their entitlement - this was nearly too infuriating to even read.
Also, honorary mention: “There’s no final word on anything, because language is always changing, so there’s no definitive myth,” said Miller, who is currently working on a new novel about Persephone and Demeter, her mother. “These were fluid texts right from the beginning.”
Said Miller, who twists and bends myths and cultural elements beyond recognition so as to excuse all her inaccuracies and downright murder of the Mythos. Also, it's a known fact that Miller sees Demeter as an oppressive mother and that she bases said belief on British poetry of the 19th century. Therefore, when that monstrosity of a book does come out (where Persephone is twice assaulted by Zeus, no doubt), I honestly wonder how they will find a way to present her portrayal of Demeter as "feministic", especially knowing her previous distaste towards maternal and female familial figures, in general (Thetis, Kirke's mom and sisters etc).
The article is titled "The Women of Greek myths are finally talking back". Which is disgusting because the Women who talk are Western Anglo women and they cover with their voices the voices of modern and ancient Greek women.
They paint our antiquity and our struggle like some type of torture porn and, in the process, ignore how much depth and power female characters were given in our ancient texts.
Those retellings are a cheaply written, stereotyped power fantasy for Western women who use us and our ancestors to feel like they are doing something against the Patriarchy.
unpopular opinion but with the new tide of Greek mythology stories and retellings, Greek Cultural Sensitivity Readings are absolutely necessary. We are in 2024, with thousands of fics and retellings out there!! How is this not a thing yet?? There's vast improvement one can achieve by working professionally on their text with a Greek. I've seen it so many times!!
Also, duh, I'm offering the service BUT I want you to know that the situation with the inaccuracies of SERIOUS works is so dire that initially I didn't even do it for money. As a writer I just wanted to... fix things, to set a new standard for writers and the industry that sells us the most heavily Americanized pop-culture material and passes it as "authentic vibes of Greek mythology". (And of course there were writers who wanted to do right by their story and they had reached out to me. So kudos to them as well!)
Okay, but why does Cultural Sensitivity Reading make a vast difference and it's not just smoke and mirrors?
As a Greek, I am tired of well-meaning writers and authors butchering very basic elements of my culture. It's not their fault exactly, since they were raised in another culture with a different perspective. And nobody clued them in on how different Greek culture is from theirs, so writers sometimes assume that their culture is the default and they project that into ancient Greece. (Even published professionals like Madeline Miller have written "UK or US in antiquity" (with a very colonialist flavor) instead of writing "Ancient Greece". (Looking at you, Circe!)
Even writers who researched a lot before coming to me still had a lot of misinformation or wrong information in their text, easily verifiable by the average Greek. Again, not their fault. They can only access certain information, which does not include Greek scholarly work and scientific articles that DO offer valuable context.
Translation, accuracy, and meaning: If you ever wondered what a word means or how to pronounce it, here's your chance! There are Greeks like me who are knowledgeable and have a keen interest in antiquity and they will be able to read and compare ancient texts, and dive deeper into the work of Greek scholars regarding those texts.
If you want to create new words, you can do that as well! (It doesn't always work, but we can try. Greek is a really rich language and has a word about everything) If you use existing words, I can help you separate reality from fantasy in the context of your story.
(Do not assume we Greeks are ignorant of our heritage, or that we don't know how to research! Our archaeology sector is huge and archaeological museums are closer to most of us than your local Target is to you)
I guarantee there are things you never thought about Greece and the Mediterranean - from the ancient to the modern era. Sprinkling elements like phrases, types of interactions, customs, songs, instruments, dances, etc , into your text will make your text absolutely rich in culture.
Names matter!!! The genders of the names matter, diminutives matter (If I see one more "Perse" for Persephone I will claw my eyes out along with a few thousand Greeks), naming traditions matter!!! In many cases you should not even use a diminutive!!
You will be able to write about a foreign culture easily! Because of the continuity of Greek culture, you can even write a few more recent Greek elements to fill in the gaps. I can make sure they are not mismatched, and they will complement your ancient setting. I have observed a few things I didn't know we had since antiquity, but they make sense because our land has certain characteristics.
Non-Greek writers often miss the whole context of Greek culture! Do you know how Greek respect towards deities and parents looks like? What tones we use when we talk to our elders? When to use honorific plural - if your setting is more modernized?
Oh, and please let's avoid caricatures when describing Greeks?? (even fantasy Greeks) There can be heavy exotisation and odd descriptions of Greeks, as if we are another species. Even in published works. For many western writers it's difficult to catch, unfortunately.
The whole process is actually way easier than you think. You send me a text, I make notes and then we have some discussion on your vision.
It's always okay to seek guidance from the locals! You are not "guilty" when you admit you don't know! How can you know if you don't ask?? You can't imagine what relief and "πάλι καλά!!!" I read/see from other Greeks when I tell them another foreigner is using me for cultural sensitivity? Greeks want you to seek help and will NOT shame you for it!
(On the contrary, you have no idea how many eye-rolls Greeks do when they see a blatantly wrong thing in a story... Which has happened pretty often for many years now. Can we do better as an industry?? Please???)
You can send me a personal message to share your story, or ask what this whole cultural sensitivity thing is all about, or ask about what I have done so far and how I can help. But for the love of all that's good, don't let your story be another "generic greek myth retelling"! And don't let others sell you their generic greek myth retellings!!
