Important Research

Farewell

^^^^^^^ All of this.

There's a difference between 'telling your own version' of a myth, and telling a completely different story. If you need to change a pre-existing character so much that they feel like a new character, then it's simply bad writing.

Miller is especially self-righteous about her retellings in interviews. Are her retellings 'other versions' of the myths? If by 'other versions' you mean distorting the mythology and missing its point, or utilizing foreign mythology as an aesthetic to draw people in, then yeah, I guess.

Readers who are ignorant of the myths or have no respect for the culture those myths belong to, will then take Miller's distorted stories as fact, and assume that hers is the correct way of telling them. And, evidently, Miller's fans will not tolerate anyone criticizing her.

Well I promise you that her books give the opposite impression.

In fact, her characterization of Patroclus alone is enough for me to doubt her both as an academic and as a researcher.

(Not to mention her tendency to invent unnecessary details, things that don't happen in the myths, like Circe getting assaulted, which was specifically added to 'justify' Circe's behaviour in the Odyssey. A+ writing, how very progressive)

A classicist like Miller should know that when you apply modern standards to an ancient myth, essentially removing it from the era in which it was written, and ignoring the reasons the myth was created, then you're missing half of the context.

Either she

has severely misunderstood the characters in the Homeric epics and Greek mythology in general (which doesn't say much about her as a classicist), or

she does understand the characters in the myths, but she cares more about what kind of story will 'sell'. She's thinking, "Let's see, if I frame Homer as problematic, and promote my books as the solution to the 'Homer problem', then of course people will prefer my stories."

If it's the latter, it's not a surprise, and she's not the first person to do it, and unfortunately she won't be the last.

@rightwheretheyleftme I think you're going into these retellings without fully grasping the purpose and cultural value of Greek mythology. I think you're glorifying these retellings regardless of how off the mark they are when it comes to characterization.

@lez-exclude-men If you're enjoying Miller's books that much, then I hate to break it to you, but you are the one who needs to get 'elbows deep' in research. But if you have no desire to do all that work, maybe you shut up and let people express their opinions? Miller's work is flawed, and we are allowed to point it out.

This isn't about Miller being a woman, and it isn't about all retellings being inherently bad. This is about Miller not respecting and not understanding the mythology she's so eager to 'fix'.

So Madeline Miller is writing a Persephone retelling. So let's make our bets about the book.

The winners will win this picture of a brick.

So let's make a bet.

A.) She will potray Demeter as an abusive mother, whaile the kidnapping will be ereased, and Hades will be baby boyfied.

B.) Hades will be potrayd as eveil incarnate, and Demeter will be potrayd as a poor poor blorbo (similar to how she potrayd Circe)

C.) Both will be potrayd as the worst. Demeter, and Hades will be potrayd as abusive, and Persephone will be potrayd as a poor poor girl who always has to suffer.

My bet is that it will be C.).

The more news we get on Christopher Nolan's The Odyssey the more I'm convinced this dude thinks we're still in the 1990s 🤦‍♀️🤦‍♀️🤦‍♀️

What the hell is this???

(picture credits @margaretkart)

For comparison this is what the real Ithaca looks like:

Stop Treating Greek Mythology Like Just Another Fictional Franchise

I am honestly tired of seeing people lump Greek mythology into the same category as DC Comics, anime, or any other modern fictional universe. There’s this frustrating trend where people discuss figures like Odysseus or Achilles in the same breath as Batman or Goku, as if they’re just characters in a long-running franchise rather than deeply rooted cultural and literary icons from one of the most influential civilizations in history.

Yes, myths contain fantastical elements—gods turning into animals, heroes slaying monsters, mortals being punished or rewarded in ways that defy logic. But that does not mean Greek mythology is the same as a modern fantasy novel. These myths were part of an entire civilization’s identity. The ancient Greeks didn’t just tell these stories for entertainment; they used them to explain the world, explore human nature, justify traditions, and even shape their religious practices. The Odyssey isn’t just an adventurous tale about a guy struggling to get home—it’s a reflection of Greek values, an exploration of heroism, fate, and the gods' role in human life. When people treat it as nothing more than “fiction,” they erase the cultural weight it carried for the people who created it.

Greek mythology functioned in antiquity—these were their sacred stories, their way of making sense of the universe. And yet, people will still argue that the Odyssey is no different from a DC Elseworlds story, as if it was just an early attempt at serialized storytelling rather than a cornerstone of Western literature.

Part of the problem comes from how myths have been adapted in modern media. Hollywood and pop culture have turned Greek mythology into a shallow aesthetic, cherry-picking elements for the sake of spectacle while stripping away any historical or cultural depth. Movies like Clash of the Titans or games like God of War reimagine the myths in ways that make them feel like superhero stories—cool battles, flashy gods, exaggerated personalities. And while those adaptations can be fun, they’ve also contributed to this weird idea that Greek myths are just another IP (intellectual property) that anyone can rewrite however they want, without considering their original context.

This becomes especially frustrating when people defend radical reinterpretations of Greek mythology under the “it’s just fiction” excuse. No, Greek mythology is not just fiction! It’s cultural heritage. It’s part of history. It’s literature. It’s philosophy. If someone drastically rewrote a Shakespearean play and justified it by saying, “Well, it’s just an old story,” people would push back. If someone did the same to the Mahabharata or The Tale of Genji , there would be outrage. But when it happens to Greek myths? Suddenly, it’s “just fiction,” and any criticism is dismissed as overreacting.

I am not saying mythology should be untouchable. Reinterpretation and adaptation have always been a part of how these stories survive—Euripides retold myths differently from Homer, and Ovid gave his own spin on Greek legends in his Metamorphoses. The difference is that those ancient reinterpretations still respected the source material as cultural history, rather than treating it as some creative sandbox where anything goes. When people defend blatant inaccuracies in modern adaptations by saying, “It’s just a story, why does it matter?” they are ignoring the fact that these myths are a major link to an ancient civilization that shaped so much of what we call Western culture today.

Ultimately, Greek mythology deserves the same level of respect as any major historical and literary tradition. It’s not a superhero franchise. It’s not a random fantasy series. It’s the legacy of a civilization that continues to influence philosophy, literature, art, and even modern storytelling itself. So let’s stop treating it like disposable entertainment and start appreciating it for the depth, complexity, and significance it truly holds.

'I’ll be the first person to call out when a person from an imperialist country is disrespectful against another culture’s traditions because this affects my everyday life.'

I see, thank you for sharing that. I repeat, however, I did not accuse you of xenophobia.

OP's post was harmless, including the tags. They were joking, they said so themselves. You're making a bigger deal out of this than it needs to be.

There was an interview where Miller specifically said "I wanted to push back against Homer". That's probably what I remembered, and same logic applies. How can she compare her books to ancient writings?

As for which characters she simplified, well, I've already mentioned Patroclus. The women in 'The song of Achilles' are depicted negatively because they get in the way of Patrochilles. In general Miller sees the Gods as modern sociopaths and describes them as such. Why did Helios need to be a bad father, for example? Simply for protagonist Circe's backstory? In Circe, it often feels like all the male characters have to be abusive purely for Miller's 'feminist' narrative.

You keep forgetting what I wrote:

This isn't about all retellings being inherently bad.

Let me put it this way; I enjoy fanfiction. Fanfiction is essentially a form of retelling. But here's the thing; even in fanfiction, where you put the pre-existing characters in a story that diverges from canon, or even in an AU, the characters are still 'in character'. If their personalities are different, then what's the point? You might as well be reading about completely different characters.

'The idea that reimaginings are “bad writing” is restrictive of the medium and dismissive of plenty of great works'

I was refering to the characters' personalities. Not the entire idea of a retelling. So again, I'm not anti-art, and again, I feel you're twisting my words.

You said in your previous response 'I don’t care for misinformed reviews'. Well, I don't care for people who repeatedly distort my opinions. And I especially do not need to justify myself to them, since they will twist anything I say.

So Madeline Miller is writing a Persephone retelling. So let's make our bets about the book.

The winners will win this picture of a brick.

So let's make a bet.

A.) She will potray Demeter as an abusive mother, whaile the kidnapping will be ereased, and Hades will be baby boyfied.

B.) Hades will be potrayd as eveil incarnate, and Demeter will be potrayd as a poor poor blorbo (similar to how she potrayd Circe)

C.) Both will be potrayd as the worst. Demeter, and Hades will be potrayd as abusive, and Persephone will be potrayd as a poor poor girl who always has to suffer.

My bet is that it will be C.).

His father is away, and so is his mother, even if she rarely leaves the palace.

It rains a lot when he's young, and no one tells him why.

---

She needs to be objective. Impartial. Unwavering. She needs to be.

And so she tries. She tries hard and when she looks into his eyes, she locks her heart away. She knows that, if she leaves it on plain sight, she will stop and think of how brilliant his eyes seem underneath the fire torch light; she’s staring at two pieces of burning coal.

His voice, low and gruff, reaches her ears. "Athena..."

She almost winces. You are just too much, she thinks, ashamed.

---

His hand is bleeding. As he lazily wraps a piece of cloth over his golden stained knuckles, facing the wall that just met his wrath, he's trying to deny it all.

Their father gave her a thunderbolt.

Their father, who has always been on and on about how lethal a weapon his thunderbolt was, passed such a weapon on to his daughter.

Not his son. Never him. He doesn't deserve it.

As if his thoughts could be read, he hears a sharp crack of lightning in the distance. He looks out his window.

That's her. He chuckles. When Zeus throws his thunderbolts, it's a long, low rumble that shakes the earth. He wants everyone to feel his anger, that prick.

What he just heard however, was different.

In many ways, he thinks, she's like a crack of lightning. She is the thunderclap he hears in the distance when he's caught in a rainfall.

Hold on a sec

"all in all the Hellenic Republic as we know it today is a very recent concept in the large scheme of theings"

I hope you're talking about the Hellenic Republic as in the nation-state (and even then, it's not that recent), and not the people.

Because Greeks, as in, the people, didn't appear 200 years ago, nor did we conjure up an ethnic identity the moment we became a nation-state (200 years ago). We've held and preserved our ethnic identity for thousands of years. We've been Greeks for thousands of years.

"And is not a race because people of different backgrounds can have the Greek citizenship"

First of all, let's not confuse 'nationality' with 'ethnicity'. What you're talking about here is Nationality Law, which is a thing in a lot of countries, not exclusively in Greece.

Let's say I, a Greek person, became a Nigerian citizen through naturalisation. And someone decided to make a movie/show about the Yoruba deities. By your logic, some of the gods in this movie/show could very well look like me, a Greek person, or a Swedish person who is a Nigerian citizen, or a Chinese person who is a Nigerian citizen, and so on and so on.

Do you see the problem?

"And it's not the same as whitewashing"

Excuse me, your logic here; this wrong thing (whitewashing) has been happening for a while, therefore we will fight it by also doing the wrong thing (casting/designing other characters inaccurately).

How is that going to help anyone? Two wrongs don't make a right.

You say "there's not a finite amount of representation" but then you essentially say misrepresention is fine as long as it's at the expense of specific groups of people.

Your US-centric concept of race doesn't apply to every other region in the world.

When you force 'fake' diversity unto Greek mythology, not only are you erasing Greeks as an ethnic group, you're also ignoring mythologies from other cultures and of other ethnic groups, in the process.

And I find it tactless of you to police what we look like and what kind of representation befits us, in stories taken straight from our culture.

"But let's humor them for a moment"

I'd advise you not to make assumptions for a country and a people (and a culture) you're clearly not familiar with.

Once again I saw people complaining about making Greek mythology things with people who have dark skin, because they aren't "ethnically Greek". But they actually mean "racially Greek" because Ethnicity is not just skin color, it also refers to a shared culture, customs, traditions etc etc, but I digress

And before annoying people on tumblr start sending me hate messages accusing me of being racist against Greek people (again lol) for saying that is not bad for something Greek mythology related to have a couple of Dark skinned characters out of the majority light skinned characters (coughHadescough) allow me to explain

Now, Greek isn't actually a race, all in all the Hellenic Republic as we know it today is a very recent concept in the large scheme of theings. And is not a race because people of different backgrounds can have the Greek citizenship

But let's humor them for a moment

I went to Google images to search for the average Greek person and these are the results:

Now, we see here the so called "ethnically correct" way to look Greek

Light olive skin, dark hair and brown eyes

The way Greeks look, right?

Well

Surprise assholes, they are all Mexicans JAJAJAJA

And what does that mean? Are Mexicans stealing the Greek look? Are those people in Mexico stealing representation by looking like that? Wait, it's all Mexico? Always has been

No, but seriously. What does that means?

It means that Light olive skin, dark hair and brown eyes... It's a pretty common look everywhere

Yeah, even in South Africa you're going to find people looking like that

Now, mind you, not all Mexicans look like that, there are Indigenous people, Afro Mexicans, wHite Mexicans, Chinese Mexicans, etc etc

And I'm sure there are people in the Hellenic Republic that look different, with lighter skin, with darker skin, you know the drill

But that's the thing, you can't assign just one right way to look to a country, if you start assigning a race to a nationality you're on your way to create an ethnostate (which is bad mind you)

And people who complain about dark people taking away representation from them. Honey; Representation is not something that has a finite amount, if you don't like how some people make Patroclus dark skinned, you can always make your own version or support an artist that makes a representation you like instead of complaining about people who make him "not ethnically correct"

(Mind you, making Patroclus wHite isn't bad and has been done before)

Besides, making something culturally accurate about Greek culture doesn't have anything to do with race, as culture doesn't equal race

Like if somebody made something about Mexico and put Afro Mexicans or Chinese Mexicans in there, it's not taking anything away from me, because there's not a finite amount of representation

And it's not the same as whitewashing, as people complain about whitewashing because there are already A LOT of things with white people in it, and plus, complaining about whitewashing does next to nothing, as it's still happening (like how in the most recent adaptation of wuthering heights they choose a white actor for a character that's implied to be Romani)

BTW, I lied, in the picture above, two people are Greek actually and 2 are mexican (allegedly, I just found the pictures on Google, so who know where they're from really, they could be from anywhere lmao)

With Beetlejuice Beetlejuice, Tim Burton looks like he might be aiming to do the funniest thing that’s ever happened in one of his movies. I’m extremely here for it. Like, honestly, let the antagonist and the protagonist fall in love (with or without meaning to) while working together to save somebody else. Thirty-six years and multiple franchise iterations have determined we love them because they’re both freaks; what have you even got to lose?

Drew this back when that trailer dropped and never posted it lmao

It was supposed to continue but I lost motivation so I’m posting it now as it is. If I ever draw more crossover shenanigans I’ll just add it in a reblog

I put Musical Lydia in the Brazilian costume because it fucking rocks