The Bats Need A Scandal To Distract Vicki

I think what I love the most about Reverse Robin AU TimJay is the absolute potential for hero worship with Jason toward Tim. In canon we often forget that Tim didn't really care for Jason as Robin, meanwhile as I never shut up about, Jason has been weirdly respecting and obsessed with Tim since finding out about Tim's existence. So if you flip their order, make Tim Red Hood and make Jason Red Robin, there's so much room for hero worship from Jason.

As Robin, Jason has always teetered that edge of being pro-murder or not. Whether you believe he killed Felipe or not, even in his Post-Crisis introduction as Robin, he almost kills Two Face. Those concepts of lethal justice have always been brewing inside him, just reigned in by Bruce. So if you have Robin!Jason witnessing Red Hood!Tim start killing people and quickly making noticeable change in the landscape of gangs in Gotham, Jason would take quick notice. I think Tim as Red Hood would still be lethal, but there'd be a different application than Jason's Red Hood. Heads in duffle bags isn't Tim's style, even if he kills. I think you'd see something much more akin to that time Tim almost killed Boomerang, where it's such an elaborately thought out set up, it realistically doesn't even look like Tim killed anyone. It'd take months for Bruce to connect this string of deaths as anything other than coincidental, let alone link them to Red Hood. And Jason is wickedly smart, even as Robin. Jason, putting those pieces together before Bruce does and witnessing the undeniable positive change for Gotham it's enacting? Robin!Jason would be incredibly drawn in by that, and then even more-so, a Red Robin!Jason who has to grapple with being replaced to make room for the next Robin would I think, in anger, turn to Red Hood. And Tim would push him away at first, his plans don't have room for a scorned teenager who's trying to get back at Bruce and Nightwing!Damian like this- but I think Jason would wear him down. Prove to Tim that Jason can think on his wavelength.

Slightly related, what interests me about Red Hood!Tim is how it'd implicate his closeness to Ra's. Jason is taken into the League by Talia in Lost Days and Ra's doesn't necessarily approve of Jason's presence, especially not of Talia dunking him in the Pit, but Ra's has always canonically been A Little Weird about Tim. I think in a world Tim dies as the second Robin, it would be Ra's who dunks Tim to preserve his mind that Ra's thinks shouldn't be wasted, and you have the potential for 'apprentice of Ra's' Tim wrapped up in it all, even without him experience the Red Robin arc. So when it's Jason as Red Robin, instead of him going to Ra's when he's scorned by the Batfamily, he goes to Tim. The person he once idolized, because I think Tim would've been Jason's Robin. Smart, competent, a strong legacy to live up to. And now he's back, and he's pro-killing, an edge that Jason has always teetered on and would feel even closer to when he's replaced by a young Dick. I think Tim wouldn't ever be able to get rid of Jason.

Then on Tim's side, I think his reaction to being replaced after his death would be a complicated one. Objectively, being the Robin who believes Batman needs a Robin, he'd respect the logic and know Bruce was always going to replace him eventually. But still, there's always going to be that instinctual emotional reaction of betrayal and replacement. I think he'd view Jason at first with anger and distance, but then, seeing Jason as this street kid with begrudging potential, I could see Red Hood!Tim testing Jason. Constantly throwing things at Jason, seeing how he reacts, if he lives up to being Robin. Tim has a need for analyzing people, understanding their strengths and weaknesses. And he seems the Robin mantle very uniquely, he'd need to have it proven to him that Jason can handle it.

So you would have this dynamic of Jason hero worshipping Tim, slowly believing in Tim's methodology. While Tim is at first dismissive of him, but then starts to test him, see what makes this kid tick. And I think the TimJay potential of Jason trying to prove himself to Tim could be Neat.

Sometimes reading Arthuriana feels like reading Alice in Wonderland.

“Well,” said Alice, “these are a dreadfully strange assortment of objects!”

“They all symbolize different aspects of Our Lord’s martyrdom,” said the Fisher King, casting a line into his teacup.

“Indeed. I am sure everything symbolizes something else, for if everything was only itself I should be very confused. Might I ask what the point of the bleeding lance is?”

Alice regretted asking the question as soon as she had done so, for she saw the pun that would likely be made about the word point. Instead, however, the room erupted in applause and shouts of “The Grail! She has achieved the Grail!”

The next castle she visited, Alice resolved to herself as the inhabitants of this one danced for joy, would be more sensible.

I think there’s a good distinction to be made about the main batboys and murder

Dick: Has killed, could kill again under horrible circumstances, would never want to kill again

Jason: Has killed, could kill under his normal moral code, will definitely be killing again

Tim: Has killed, couldn’t kill again without a major break, doesn’t want to kill again and is willing to kill himself before he does that

Damian: Has killed, couldn’t kill again if people (cough cough DC) respected his growth, and never wants to kill again outside the rare fantasy for especially horrible people

Like all ideas for media this is subjective but I think pretty accurate to these characters as I’ve read up on them and as I understand their characters

Jaykyle enemies to lovers misunderstanding AU where they hatefuck once during Countdown to Final Crisis and part ways. Jason becomes Star Sapphire from a different mechanism than usual just because he's so powered by love, and forgets to mention it to just about everyone but Carol. Cue a very confused Kyle being accosted by a bunch of curious/angry bats and/or outlaws who think the reason why Jason's struggling with his power (his magic keeps exploding in his face) is because Kyle broke his heart. (It's not, Jason just needs to learn about self-love). Upon learning that, Kyle goes through three different crises in ten minutes and decides that while he still doesn't like Jason he has to "take responsibility" and "make this right" because he thinks Jason loved him and was being defensive of Kyle's hostility and he used and ditched him, so he decides to help Jason with his powers and resolve the situation. Eventually this is what they needed to give eachother a chance and they fall in love, but god does Jason laughs his ass off when he finally learns about the misunderstanding.

DC Bat comics have a lot of classism issues (among other problems) but thanks to the weird-ass way that wealth scales, any analysis that assumes Tim’s original family is closer to the Waynes than they are to the Browns is going to be full of holes. Or if you assume Stephanie’s family is closer to the Todds than to the Drakes.

Like, the Drakes when Jack still has the company are definitely in a different tax bracket than Crystal Brown the nurse & Arthur Brown the ex gameshow host turned costumed villain, but the Drakes & Browns are still closer to each other than they are to the old money Bruce Wayne whose company bankrolls the Justice League.

Plus the time when DI went under and the Drakes were relying on Dana’s income from working as a physical therapist moved them to probably about the same bracket until Jack picked up a job too.

Acting like Stephanie Brown, who grows up in the suburbs in a house her mom owns outright, can easily put herself up in a hotel room for a week or two when fighting with her mom, only needs a job in college to avoid student loans instead of to supplement them… is close to pre-adoption Jason?

Even pre-his-parents-dying Jason?

No.

Tim & Steph have enough of a gap to have different experiences and sometimes talk past each other, but they’re still both much closer to each other than either of them is to the Waynes or the Todds.

Tim & Steph are both economically well off kids with abusive dads who decide to sneak out and fight crime. Stephanie’s mom is uninvolved in her life because of a prescription pill addiction (though she works past that to become more involved), while Tim’s mom is straight up dead, and the stepmom he gets later is nice but takes a hands-off approach to parenting (and then dies too).

This makes sense with Stephanie’s role in earlier comics being a foil to Tim (though she grows into a more independent character over time). They need enough similarities in circumstance that their different philosophies and crime fighting styles come down to personal choice, and they can argue with each other without mutually devolving into “You just don’t understand!”

TL;DR: economics and social class are fucking weird, Tim & Steph are foils, exaggerating the differences in their backgrounds messes up your analysis.

Bonus: You don’t need to make Steph even more of an underdog to appreciate her character.

Imagine if baking bread was a skill any person living independently in their own house needed to have at least a passing familiarity with, so there were endless books, blogs and websites about how to bake bread, but none of them seemed to contain the most basic facts about how bread actually works.

You would go online and find questions like "Help, I put my bread in the oven, and it GOT BIGGER!" and instead of saying anything about bread naturally rises when you put yeast in it, the results would be advertising some kind of $970 device that punches the bread while it's baking so it doesn't rise.

Even the most reliable, factually grounded sources available would have only the barest scraps of information on the particularities of ingredients, such as how different types of flour differ and produce different results, or how yeast affects the flavor profile of bread. Rice flour, barley flour, potato flour and amaranth flour would be just as common as wheat flour, but finding sources that didn't treat them as functionally identical would be near impossible. At the same time, websites and books would list specific brands of flour in bread recipes, often without specifying anything else.

An unreasonable amount of people would be hellbent on doing something like baking a full-sized loaf of bread in under 3 minutes, and would regularly bake bread to charred cinders at 700 degrees in an attempt to accomplish this, but instead of gently telling people that their goal is not realistic, books claiming to be general resources would be framed entirely around the goal of baking bread as fast as possible, with entire chapters devoted to making the charred bread taste like it isn't charred.

Anyway, this is what landscaping is like.

Got an interesting take on eldritch horror for all you writers out there. It's a bit of a roundabout schlep to reach the actual idea, but writers tend to be readers so I hold you'll stick with me til we get there.

So, consider a 2D creature. Little flat dude, living on the ground. No concept of "up" or "down." He's 2D, he just doesn't parse the concepts and can't perceive them anyways.

He sees you. What he actually sees is just the 2D cross section of you where you intersect with his 2D world, which is probably your footprints. So, as far as he can tell, you are a pair of footprints that are.... apparently one being? He doesn't get how it works exactly, but it's not too far out there, so he just kind of accepts that, yes, humans are The Two That Are One. Spooky. They always seem to use the singular to refer to the pair of themselves, and only differentiate between themselves as Left or Right. But other paired instances of The Two That Are One are, in fact, separate entities. So they're only in sets of two, unless accompanied by a companion called "Cane," which they are sometimes, or even a pair of companions called "Crutches." When Crutches are present, sometimes one of The Two That Are One will be missing entirely. It's a little confusing.

But wait, what now? They disappear and reappear in sequence, teleporting in turns. He never sees them just move like a 2D being, always the stop-start teleporting. Apparently this strange power is called "walking," and its accomplished by The Two That Are One moving through an unseen dimension called "Up," through a process called "lifting" themselves and re-entering the real world farther away in the direction they wanted to go. He can accept the idea of unseen dimensions, and he vaguely gets the idea that one of The Two That Are One must remain anchored in the real world to prevent something called "falling," which is some kind of uncontrolled movement through the unperceivable dimension of "Down." Which is the same dimension as "Up," but...... backwards? Reversed? He's not really clear, but "Falling Down" is presumably bad, so The Two That Are One keep one of themselves here in the real world to prevent it.

Except if they do something called "jumping." Which consists of gathering up their power to hurl themselves through the Up dimension together to reappear together somewhere else in the real world. He isn't sure why they Walk instead of Jump, since it seems better to take both of The Two That Are One together at the same time, but okay.

Okay, what the hell, they can Walk through impenetrable barriers like the great wall of Sidewalk Chalk? How do they go through that? What? They went "Over?" The hell is "Over?" Like 'around' but through the unseen dimension of Up? But they couldn't Walk through the barrier of Wall. Why could they go "Over" Sidewalk Chalk but not Wall?

And they can't go between the four small obstacles of Refrigerator Feet. The area between them is safe from The Two That Are One, for the four Refrigerator Feet are connected to each other in the strange and eldritch dimension of Up. The barriers are too powerful to be moved by The Two That Are One, and it (they?) cannot enter the real world where it is blocked by such powerful forces.

Got all that?

Okay, now consider a 4 dimensional elder god and how we 3D entities would perceive them.

If Jason and Damian both get to be Talia’s kids, then Tim and Cass both get to be Shiva’s kids. Like…

“Oh Jason’s trained under Talia thats why he gets to be her kid!” TIM HAS ALSO TRAINED UNDER SHIVA

Let Tim and Cass be the chaos twins they were always destined to be

okay, controversial batman opinion time! it ruins the character for him to be a billionaire, and he’s only a billionaire because too many people think ‘billionaire’ just means ‘millionaire but cooler’. bruce wayne should just be a millionaire. 

a millionaire has enough money to buy a batcave, a fancy batmobile, a supercomputer, a bunch of esoteric custom-made tools and toys, a couple companies that make enough money to fund a playboy lifestyle and a bunch of high-tech vigilante superheroes. millionaires today, even with inflation, can commission the creation of pretty much any physical item short of their own spaceship, and some of them can even do that. 

a billionaire has enough money to own entire cities and write their own laws and do whatever the fuck they want basically all the time, anywhere. look at disney, tesla, amazon, nestle, walmart. these guys are playing on an almost inconceivable global scale and they are not your friend. these are lex luthor motherfuckers. 

the question keeps being asked, ‘if bruce wayne is so rich, it’s ridiculous that he’s using all that money to run around in a bat costume punching mentally ill people’, and that’s correct if he’s got money on a billionaire’s scale. it’s absurdly irresponsible to have the kind of power that could change how a nation operates, much less local government, and just play night time punch guy with it. batman is the bad guy there. 

but say batman’s ‘just’ a millionaire. he’s the heir of a couple old money families, he’s got a mansion and some land and a private jet, he’s in with the elite of gotham, he can put some pressure on the mayor and the city council and the police– but he’s still on a level with half a dozen other families who have their own millions to throw around, their own ambitions. he can’t actually fix gotham just by throwing money at it, because he will run out of money before all the other rich guys do. 

in this situation, batman does make sense for bruce wayne to invent: a secret guy no one can pin on wayne industries, who can run around taking on organized crime and supervillains at the same time, who isn’t beholden to the social or legal conventions that the superwealthy also flout to play their fucked up games with each other. batman can actually do what a single millionaire can’t. 

batman gets written by batman fanboys to be a power fantasy, but with great power comes great responsibility, etc. at a certain level of wealth his power far outstrips his purpose, and being batman is actually irresponsible for bruce wayne. a hero’s limitations make for better stories. stop writing batman as a billionaire, already.