Zella-rose - Zella Rose

i just wanted to say that your response to the post about finding a job if you have avpd was so incredibly helpful to me. I was getting really down on myself for not being able to go out and "just get a job" like everyone else, and this trulu helped me. thank you so much for giving me insight and hope for the future. You're awesome (im sorry im shy and on anon)

Aw! You are so welcome, friend. Thanks for taking the time to let me know!

It’s really hard to live in a society that says a person’s value depends on their being “useful” – as if there’s even a way to say someone is objectively useful. Not everyone is able to function that way, and we are still just as worthy as anyone else.

I just want to reassure you (& everyone who struggles with mental health) that Yes, this is super extra hard for us – other people make it look easy *because for them, it IS easy.* If life was a video game, we’d be playing it in “Hard” mode.

We shouldn’t ever be ashamed of our lives. It might not look like other people’s success, but it’s OUR success, and it counts. <3

This is definitely something I experience, and I identify with AvPD very strongly.

I also had obvious social anxiety before I even knew about AvPD. To me, it’s pretty easy to differentiate at this point, because “social anxiety” feels, you know, like anxiety, but my AvPD stuff feels like shame, and the fear of shame.

I experience it like:

social anxiety =

physical tense buzzing wariness

imagining the Bad Thing happening (messing up, being laughed at, humiliated)

catastrophizing

panicky

wanting to escape the danger.

(The danger is a thing Outside of me, which I can be safe from as long as I get out of this situation.)

AvPD moments =

a cold knot of sick shame in my stomach

feeling exposed, seen, defenseless, inexcusable

not having any shields or masks left to hide behind

wanting to flee and be alone / unseen, or

to disappear (dissociate) and be invisible.

(The danger is a thing Inside of me, which I can’t escape ever because it is Me, but which I can avoid having to face as long as I get out of this situation.)

So, the self esteem tug-of-war.

For me, it’s because although I started from a point of being totally incapacitated by AvPD symptoms/self hatred/etc, I’ve spent years rebuilding my self-esteem and creating a sense of who I am. So on good days, I believe in the thing I’ve spent so much time carefully growing – the feeling that I’m an OK person, that I’m likable, that I deserve to have a full life and to enjoy things. (Notice, when I’m in this healthy mindset, I’m not even thinking about “whether other people can see me/how they will judge me”.)

Then sometimes I will be in a lower mood, or something will trigger me into old/negative thought patterns, and I’ll find myself spiraling in “I’m so terrible,” and “any kindness/positivity from others is meaningless, for A, B, or C reasons,“ and “I will be revealed to be Horrible sooner or later, and then I’ll lose every positive relationship I have.”

So I definitely think it is possible to believe you’re worthy and unworthy at almost-the-same-time. Having this kind of push-pull struggle between feelings of adequacy and inadequacy is entirely possible, and it’s probably very normal if you’re in the process of recovering from poor self esteem.

(1) hi, i have really severe social anxiety and i've been wondering if it's possible i actually have avpd. i saw the ask about self-esteem and i kind of related but kind of not if that makes sense? i honestly don't know how i would rate my self esteem. i think i'm a person of worth who is intelligent and talented but i'm always terribly worried that i'm lying to myself and my perceived self is just an ideal i've created and i'm not actually as smart or funny or interesting as i'd like to think.

(2) i guess to rephrase, i think every life has inherent value and that logically applies to my own life, and i have a sense of identity, but i’m scared that it isn’t real. and as ridiculous as it sounds, i’m insecure that this carries into my relationships with other people as well. like with my boyfriend, i worry that i’ve fooled myself into thinking i’m interesting and maybe i’ve somehow managed to fool him, too. i guess i’m wondering if this sounds characteristic of avpd to you at all?

Hey.

It’s hard to say whether this sounds like AvPD or not because low self-esteem can exist with almost any mental illness, or even without it. It can exist with Social Anxiety Disorder (SAD) and it can exist with AvPD. I can’t give you an answer to that, unfortunately.

I would recommend you have a read through the links on our Resources page, but specifically these two links:

AvPD Criteria (in-depth). 

 AvPD or Social Anxiety Disorder (SAD)- Avoidance (forum). 

These should help give you a better understanding and should help you determine whether you have AvPD or SAD. Keep in mind though, you can have both. SAD is very common with in people with AvPD. 

I know personally, my SAD was a pre-cursor for my AvPD. 

- Jay. 

Hm... I definitely have some dependent traits. But some borderline traits, too, and a few NPD.

(I have a theory that AvPD, BPD and NPD are different expressions of the same core issue. They all circle around a very particular kind of shame, which is why we can all learn a lot from each other. I’ll have to do more research before I can figure out if DPD fits the same pattern though)

I believe I have both avpd and dpd, but it's kind of confusing for me. Do you think that's possible, and if so how do you think a person with both would behave (for comparison to myself)?

I think DPD is confusing for a lot of people, so don’t worry, you’re not alone in that. But AvPD and DPD is actually a really common co-morbidity, as you can see by the data at this link: here. (Beware of Out of the FOG in general, but it’s the only site that has statistical data on these things.) Plus, PDs are most co-morbid with other ones in the same cluster.

Someone with both AvPD and DPD would probably have a pronounced relationship with a “safe person”, I imagine. Who in this case would also be what I think the majority of the DPD community refers to as their “depended”. But while most people with DPD seek validation and dependence from many people, and rely on the opinions of others for whatever they do, I think people with AvPD as well would mainly focus on the one person, and be terrified of engaging with others, even if they wanted to.

But experiences will vary, as they always do. There are a myriad of experiences for any disorder, so matter what the clinical expectation is. Some people suffer from some symptoms more than others.

I hope that helps!

- Shinji

recovery is not ‘soon i will be untouched, perfect, and in a permanent state of bliss. i will be healed and all will be well, forever.’

recovery is ‘i will continue to survive despite what happens, i will find ways to cope instead of continually tearing myself down. i will recover and will see myself in a light that i never thought was possible.’

Levels of relationship, part 1

(Part of my ongoing series of posts on Avoidant Personality Disorder.)

I realized recently that I tend to try and categorize every relationship I form. Here’s how that breaks down.

Variables of a relationship

The quantity of time I spend feeling safe vs. scared with them

Past evidence of them being judgmental or trustworthy

How possible intimate connection seems

How rewarding intimate connection seems

From those variables, we get groups like this.

“Scary” person:

someone I usually feel frightened around

they’ve shown frightening behavior: they’ve treated me or others negatively in the past (acting critical, judgmental, rejecting, or cruel)

Intimacy is impossible.

I will never choose to be vulnerable with them, for any reason.

“Friendly” person:

someone I feel comfortable around

who has NOT shown frightening behavior

Intimacy is possible, but even if I achieved it, I think it has a very low chance of turning out well.

I could choose to be vulnerable with them, but I usually won’t, because it’s not worth the risk.

“Safe” person:

someone I feel comfortable around

who has shown trustworthy behavior in the past: I have been vulnerable with them, and they responded in a kind, supportive, accepting way

Intimacy is definitely possible, and I think it’s likely to have a positive result: they’ll probably be kind and supportive again.

I will probably choose to be vulnerable with them as often as possible.

It’s not this clear-cut or this conscious in real life. But looking at the patterns in my relationships, that tends to be how it divides. When I’m with some people, I feel really, shockingly good; with others, I feel okay; and with others, I feel really bad/afraid.

Who goes where?

For me, I assume most people are “friendly.” Acquaintances who have never frightened me go here. Strangers go here -- for me -- because why would they bother judging me? What are they judging me against?

People who are abusive or who violate my boundaries go in “scary,” of course. But, for me, so do people who are just really opinionated or blunt, because I have such a low tolerance for conflict and hostility. (People vary! Your criteria for “scary/unsafe” or any other group might be totally different, and that’s okay.)

The rarest group is “safe” people.

Because finding someone who’s basically never frightened me, who I’ve risked being open with, and who responded to me in the exact right way to put me at ease and make me feel heard and accepted -- well, that just doesn’t happen very often.

For me, the chances are better if they’re naturally mild and considerate people. And the chances are really good if they genuinely like me.

For more about safe people, you can read part 2 here.

AvPD and healing self-esteem - tl;dr.

(Part of my ongoing series of posts on Avoidant Personality Disorder.)

AvPD disconnects you from others, from yourself, and from your feelings.

And that hurts. A lot.

It’s okay to try and fix it.

It’s okay to want to feel better.

And it’s okay to notice your feelings, even if they’re unpleasant.

When you feel judged on all sides, make a safe space for yourself. Find somewhere you can be totally alone and free of observation, like a private journal. Feel what it’s like to not have anyone looking over your shoulder -- maybe for the first time.

Explore your feelings. Get to know what you really think and want, when your opinion is the only one that matters.

When you can, be nice to yourself. Try giving yourself the benefit of the doubt.

Do things that feel good.

When you’re upset with yourself for messing up, consciously decide to look for things that you succeeded at instead. Make a list of wins.

Here’s how this relates to self-esteem.

When we describe what it feels like to have AvPD, it sounds like, “Everyone judges and hurts me.”

But people only have the power to decide how much we’re worth, because we aren’t taking charge of doing that ourselves.

When you reconnect with your feelings, create a judgment-free zone for yourself, and learn to treat yourself nicely, you’re giving value to yourself. You’re saying, “This matters. My feelings matter. I’m worth taking care of.”

Esteem means “favorable opinion or respect.” In the throes of AvPD, we survive on other people’s esteem for us -- it matters what they think, because that’s how we determine our self-worth. But when we shift to relying on self esteem, we can finally heal and begin to thrive.

When we give respect and value to ourselves, no one else can take it away.

And that’s why practicing self-care and self-kindness is so powerful and important.

(You can read more here, in the long version of this post.)

a lot of it depends on what you know about yourself! the stressfulness of a job varies SO much from person to person, depending on their abilities and preferences.

I would guess that people with AvPD probably value alone time (it’s restful), anonymity (personal connection is scary), and predictability (if you know what to do, you’re less likely to make a mistake and be criticized).

in general, back room jobs usually involve less face time with people. same with night shifts. stuff like data entry is usually pretty easy and chill, + some jobs like that will be short term, so if you have a hard time quitting, having the endpoint built-in can be a relief.

and if you’re interested in specifically limited-term work and don’t know where to begin, you can look into temp and staffing agencies! they coordinate all kinds of stuff like that, and you can tell them what sort of timespan you’re looking for.

here are some things to think about:

are you more stressed out by social interactions, or having to face things on your own?

can you self-manage? or do you need guidance and support from a boss, partner, or team?

do you learn quickly? how are your executive skills? prioritizing, initiating tasks, staying focused, multi-tasking etc. if these are strong, you might do great working solo (keywords like.. “self-directed” and “independent”)

would you rather interact mostly...

with customers, like in a retail store? (can be very stressful and fast-paced, but you’re basically anonymous from day to day)

or with coworkers, like in an office? (way more predictable and usually slower-paced. but they get to know you over time, so you’re much more visible as a person)

do you like corporate/chain environments, where there’s already lots of structure in place?

there’s generally a clear procedure for changing your hours, quitting, etc. and people don’t take it so personally. and your job is well-defined: you know what’s expected of you

but if having set expectations feels too inflexible and ‘trapped’ for you, then consider small local businesses, or places with very chill management (usually young managers, in my experience)

that’s all the general stuff I can think of ~ so I’m just gonna speak for myself now, and hope the example is useful!

my tactic is to look for jobs that

will put low responsibility/attention on me

involve something I actually like or am good at

and don't set off too many of my anxiety/stress triggers!

for less responsibility and pressure, I personally want to work with a group of other people doing the same job as me -- that way not everything is automatically My Problem, and I can stick to the things I’m good at. it also means I have a better chance of finding someone non-scary to help me and teach me, or to partner with. I can’t handle not knowing what to do, so being (functionally & emotionally) able to ask someone for help is A+.

I gravitate toward working with animals, books, and things I can physically organize or clean. I really enjoy that stuff -- which means it helps me self-soothe throughout the day.

(same with competence!! I feel inadequate and bad at things by default, so getting to do stuff I’m actually good at is really stabilizing and calming for me. but it’s not mandatory.)

I also watch out for things I know I’d dread/probably suck at. I have ADHD and social anxiety, so I try to avoid self-management, fast paced anything, driving, improvising, phone-heavy work, making public announcements and dealing with difficult customers. I generally look for more limited and pre-defined jobs so I know what to expect.

for me, this means even though I’d be fantastic at tech support, I won’t ever apply at a call center (phones! angry people!); with my memory and attention problems, food service would be a total nightmare, and probably so would receptionist work, managing other people, making deliveries, or anything in a very busy environment.

plus, here is a thing that I suspect might be AvPD-specific:

once I’ve had a job somewhere, I feel super anxious and avoid-y about going back there!! ever, for any reason!

it’s really severe (what if I see someone who knows me?? plus all the Shame Memories and associations and visibility agh. this isn’t healthy, but for now it’s where I’m at.) so ~ no jobs at my favorite places, otherwise I may never go back to them, and that would suck.

but on the other hand -- if you can find a place where other people’s normal is close to your normal, you’ll probably feel more at ease. like, book stores are very inviting for people (workers AND customers) who are quiet and not very sociable! gaming stores are super welcoming for geeks! you’ll fit in better if you already resemble the people there. which also means it’s easier to be invisible when you want to.

some things I’m seriously considering right now are

stocking at a bookstore

working at a flower shop or craft store

maybe a maid service or hotel

and I’m realizing that driving is a huge Thing for me, so I’m starting to look at just what’s nearby. that limits my options a lot, but it’s nice to know what my priorities are.

specific job options really depend on your background/skills, what sort of place you live in, etc. (big city vs small town vs work at home, even), but maybe this is a starting point for narrowing it down!

hope it’s helpful =)

do any of you have job suggestions that are fairly low stress? i need to try to get one this summer but i’m Afraid.

I know covid 19 has been going on for long. It is terrible and I hope with all my heart that it is over soon. I want you to know that following the restrictions save lives, and it’s okay if they make you sad. It’s okay if everything seems harder now than in the first months. We have been in this a long time and now it’s (for some of us atleast) very dark outside. It is hard. It is lonely, but we got to keep on going. We will make it. There is light ahead with vaccines. More and more restrictions may be added, dependent on where we each live. It will be okay again. Hang in there. For what it is worth: You are not alone and your feelings are valid. It’s scary and it may be getting to you a lot more now as the months went on. Winter is already a tough season for many people. Adding covid 19 on top of that? That is a lot. Do not beat yourself up. Hang in there, do what you can to take care of yourself and talk to someone.

We will make it through. It will be hard, but we will make it. 🌸

I’ve always struggled with social anxiety and self-confidence in different areas. It waxes and wanes in amplitude, but it’s always there. This affects my ability to do research as I struggle to do things like use the phone, send emails asking people to do things in a timely fashion, and finish work due to perfectionism.  It was really bad a couple of years ago, during my PhD. We had official annual meetings with a member of staff to check on progress back then, which were a good idea but terrified the students. I always had mine with a member of faculty a lot of people are scared of. I’m not sure why, maybe because their courses were very difficult and they was a strict marker? I’d heard they’d mellowed over the years so maybe, like a fear of the dark, students’ wariness passed down the generations.  Whatever the reason, I’d never been scared of them, and always saw them as a fair mind when it came to assessing my progress. I wouldn’t believe myself or my friends mostly, but I’d trust them to tell the truth. On my last meeting they knew I wasn’t very well. I always cried in these meetings through stress/lifting of stress, so true to form the box of tissues were ready and they offered me a fruit tea. I had the summer fruits. It was really sweet and calming, and I didn’t need the tissues that year. We spoke at length about why I was struggling within myself when my work seemed perfectly fine, even really good in places. And we got talking about anxiety when not at work. Turns out both of us have similar social anxiety problems! We both struggle to go in a shop with no or few other customers, because we hate being watched by staff. It’s really specific but I bet it’s common haha. We both hate using the phone, even ordering take away is difficult! Maybe this is why I wasn’t scared of them?  At any rate, it was great to know I wasn’t alone, here was a full professor with the same problems I have, still doing science! But, I asked, how do you do it? How did you get this high up the ladder and not quit, or not take it out on yourself? How are you not anxious all the time? Oh, I am anxious, they said. I was really bad for years. Wouldn’t use the phone at all. But then I was made Head of Department.  That’s terrifying! What did you do? Well I was still anxious, about using the phone for example. But I realised, the Head of Department uses the phone to call people to get things sorted quickly. And at the moment, I’m Head of Department. That’s the hat I’m wearing. The Head of Department picks up the phone and the Head of Department speaks to people to Get Things Done. That’s a role I’m performing, that’s all, and people expect me to be the Head of Department. And it helped, and now I can use the phone because I’m used to it.  Hearing them say that was a bit of an epiphany. They weren’t saying “just suck it up”, it’s a complete reframing of the interaction. 

YOU might not like using the telephone to ask so-and-so to do something, but Scientist-In-Charge-Of-Making-This-Thing-Work DOES call Collaborators to remind them, and then Collaborators can respond that they forgot, or they have it scheduled in for next week, because it’s their role to do something. 

YOU might be scared of going into that shop, but a Potential Customer does go into shops and look around. Potential Customer might be asked by Sales Rep whether they need help, and Potential Customer can say just browsing. Sales Rep may watch Potential Customer browse, but that’s okay, because they’re waiting to perform their role. And when Potential Customer leaves the shop, they aren’t that role anymore, back to self. Interaction done. 

YOU might not want to email that person to ask them for a reference, BUT a Final Year Student DOES send the email, because part of their role is to get a reference at the end. And the person receiving the email also has a role, and that is Someone Who Sometimes Gets Reference Requests, that they can response Yes or No to. Then Final Year Student can get their reference about Final Year Student or can move on to someone else. Interaction over. Slate clean. Sometimes we get so caught up we forget that many of the things we do are divorced from our own self, and we worry about judgements from other people. But in a lot of our interactions, especially at work or school, we have a set of roles and rules. When it’s getting really hard for me to do things like email, phone, or go somewhere, it helps me to think of that Professor’s first day as Head of Department, them sitting there with that weight of responsibility and internally screaming as they pick up the phone the first time, because that’s what Head of Departments do. If they can do it and normalise it, I know I can too. One day! :)